Vacheron polishing & papers & customs, oh my!

[watch_my_six]

The stars may be aligning for me to acquire a 1980's Vacheron. I'm looking at a specific reference, and I'm trying to decide between two examples. I have my opinions, but I'm curious what other enthusiasts/collectors think.

Basically, the first watch looks polished, both because of the literal level of shine for such an old watch, and due to the softness of the edges of some of the dings. But, it has original papers. This watch is in another country, and while I will be coincidentally visiting there soon, it would require either declaring it and paying duty, or risking not, so I'm also curious to hear folks' experiences who have gone the latter route.



The second watch appears to have a more natural level of wear on the case, but paradoxically the serial number on the caseback appears quite faint, so does this also suggest it has had a moderate amount of polishing? This watch is a little cheaper, and it has also been recently "partially" overhauled, so it would not likely entail as much of a service bill in the near future.

 

[DaveK]

If you choose to not declare it, may I suggest

 

[gatorcpa]

jspdl

This watch is in another country, and while I will be coincidentally visiting there soon, it would require either declaring it and paying duty, or risking not, so I'm also curious to hear folks' experiences who have gone the latter route.

You don’t mention your home country, but this article has a synopsis of rules from several countries:

https://quillandpad.com/2023/05/21/...g-but-heres-how-to-avoid-the-worst-reprise-3/

IMO, always best to declare if returning to US, even if might require you to spend a little extra time in line. Most Customs agents have little idea how to compute proper duties on watches and you have an $800 per person exemption to start with. Unless this is a very expensive watch, the juice for them isn’t worth the squeeze in most cases. Remember, they have lines to keep moving and they really don’t like extra paperwork.

gatorcpa

 

[Larry S]

Impossible to determine from partial pics, the condition of this watch.

Edited: Jun 23, 2024

 

[Larry S]

I was an insanely frequent international traveler for 12 years before I retired. The only time I was ever shunted over to bag inspection was upon retuning home from Istanbul. “Where’s the candy?” said the inspector. “Got me” said I. Fortunately all the tea, spices and food were well sealed and off i went.

 

[Tony C.]

As mentioned, more photos are required for any serious assessment.

Broadly speaking, I would argue that it is "penny-wise, pound foolish" to purchase high-quality, vintage gold watches that have been polished to any significant degree. It will cap/limit their value going forward, as most serious collectors will shun such watches, and they have also lost an integral part of the original design. If you have the opportunity to handle a very well preserved vintage gold watch in person, I encourage you to do so, as the look and feel of a case that retains its original lines, and light-reflection, is far superior to those which appear to have melted, as may be the case with the one in your first photo.

 

[watch_my_six]

gatorcpa

You don’t mention your home country, but this article has a synopsis of rules from several countries:

https://quillandpad.com/2023/05/21/...g-but-heres-how-to-avoid-the-worst-reprise-3/

IMO, always best to declare if returning to US, even if might require you to spend a little extra time in line. Most Customs agents have little idea how to compute proper duties on watches and you have an $800 per person exemption to start with. Unless this is a very expensive watch, the juice for them isn’t worth the squeeze in most cases. Remember, they have lines to keep moving and they really don’t like extra paperwork.

gatorcpa

Oh the U.S. is my home country. Wow, do people really register their watches with the CBP upon leaving the U.S., and declare their watches for personal use upon entering foreign countries? I didn't even realize these were recommendations/requirements.

And this would be a much more expensive watch than $800. When paying duty, are the rates the same as applied during importing a shipment via Chapter 91 of the HTS? https://www.usitc.gov/publications/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/1401c91.pdf

 

[gatorcpa]

jspdl

Wow, do people really register their watches with the CBP upon leaving the U.S., and declare their watches for personal use upon entering foreign countries?

Here is the page from CBP:

https://www.cbp.gov/travel/clearing-cbp/certificate-registration

There is a link to a blank form on that page. I’ve not heard of anyone filling one out for years. However, if you would be traveling outbound with an expensive watch (not something I would recommend for reasons outside customs), filling one out doesn’t cost anything and could help you pass customs upon your return.

jspdl

When paying duty, are the rates the same as applied during importing a shipment via Chapter 91 of the HTS?

Yes. That is appropriate section of the code.
gatorcpa

 

[watch_my_six]

Tony C.

As mentioned, more photos are required for any serious assessment.

Broadly speaking, I would argue that it is "penny-wise, pound foolish" to purchase high-quality, vintage gold watches that have been polished to any significant degree. It will cap/limit their value going forward, as most serious collectors will shun such watches, and they have also lost an integral part of the original design. If you have the opportunity to handle a very well preserved vintage gold watch in person, I encourage you to do so, as the look and feel of a case that retains its original lines, and light-reflection, is far superior to those which appear to have melted, as may be the case with the one in your first photo.

I of course agree. And I try to follow the philosophy that boxes/papers should only ever enhance an already good watch, but never make up for weaknesses. My guess is you would agree, since you commented on the polishing/condition, but you didn't comment on the papers at all?

But since I haven't had the luxury of seeing many vintage gold watches in person, I am less sure based on these photos how significantly either of them appear to have been polished. But since you suggest that the first one may be more "melted", what aspects of it are suggesting that to you, so that I may be able to look out for them in person? And do you have fewer concerns about the condition of the second one? E.g. is the "faded" serial number not a concern? Do these photos help any more?

 

[watch_my_six]

gatorcpa

Yes. That is appropriate section of the code.
gatorcpa

Then can you help sanity-check me that if this is a precious-metal watch (9101), automatic (9101.21), with over 17 jewels, the duty is actually FREE (?!) on the movement/case (9101.21.50) and 3.1% on the strap (9101.21.10 or 20)?
(And column 2 only applies for products of the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa, correct)?

 

[Larry S]

jspdl

Oh the U.S. is my home country. Wow, do people really register their watches with the CBP upon leaving the U.S., and declare their watches for personal use upon entering foreign countries? I didn't even realize these were recommendations/requirements.

And this would be a much more expensive watch than $800. When paying duty, are the rates the same as applied during importing a shipment via Chapter 91 of the HTS? https://www.usitc.gov/publications/docs/tata/hts/bychapter/1401c91.pdf

No…No one files paperwork to travel with their watch on their wrist. I have never been asked about my watch. Customs have bigger fish to fry. A watch roll however is another matter and if you are traveling with a collection, best to have the papers.

Edited: Jun 24, 2024

 

[gatorcpa]

jspdl

Then can you help sanity-check me that if this is a precious-metal watch (9101), automatic (9101.21), with over 17 jewels, the duty is actually FREE (?!) on the movement/case (9101.21.50) and 3.1% on the strap (9101.21.10 or 20)? (And column 2 only applies for products of the Virgin Islands, Guam, and American Samoa, correct)?

I’m not even going to try. You need a customs broker, not a CPA.
gatorcpa

 

[watch_my_six]

gatorcpa

I’m not even going to try. You need a customs broker, not a CPA.
gatorcpa

Oh it sounded like you may have had some personal experience working with that doc in the past, which I'm always curious to chat with folks who have, but no worries. I've been pretty accurate in my application of it so far with multiple watches imported...

 

[Tony C.]

jspdl

But since you suggest that the first one may be more "melted", what aspects of it are suggesting that to you, so that I may be able to look out for them in person? And do you have fewer concerns about the condition of the second one? E.g. is the "faded" serial number not a concern? Do these photos help any more?

I'd quite willing to help you, but not without full photos of the watch(es) in question. I am not able to assess any watch seriously based on partial images.