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US Tariffs on Switzerland

Porteroso
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sathomasga sathomasga
Wired:
They cannot deny a citizen entry, whether you hand over the password to your phone or not. It is possible that they could ask, but rare, for citizens. They asked .01% of travelers in 2024, and the majority of those were non citizens.

What we were talking about was bank transactions, and to my knowledge no citizen is asked for their bank login upon entry. The CBP has authority to search your belongings, which includes your phone, but that does not extend to your bank account.
 
Archer
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Porteroso Porteroso
They cannot deny a citizen entry, whether you hand over the password to your phone or not.
Indeed they cannot, but they also can hold you.
 
sathomasga
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Porteroso Porteroso
They cannot deny a citizen entry, whether you hand over the password to your phone or not.
They can confiscate the phone and deny entry until they are able to unlock it and access its contents. That can certainly take awhile. Source: cbp.gov.

Porteroso Porteroso
The CBP has authority to search your belongings, which includes your phone, but that does not extend to your bank account.

If you have a banking app on your phone that is secured by biometric protection (e.g. facial recognition), they can simply hold the phone up to your face to unlock the app. The 9th Circuit has ruled that this does not violate your 4th amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure or your 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. Source: US vs Payne.
 
gatorcpa
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Archer Archer
Oops!!!

From Japan39.webp
Yes, we all know that this tariff was placed to encourage someone to purchase the Hamilton name back from Swatch and to re-open the Lancaster factory after kicking out all the condo residents who live there.

Make American Watches Great Again! (TM)
gatorcpa
 
Porteroso
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sathomasga sathomasga
They can confiscate the phone and deny entry until they are able to unlock it and access its contents. That can certainly take awhile. Source: cbp.gov.



If you have a banking app on your phone that is secured by biometric protection (e.g. facial recognition), they can simply hold the phone up to your face to unlock the app. The 9th Circuit has ruled that this does not violate your 4th amendment protection against unreasonable search and seizure or your 5th amendment protection against self-incrimination. Source: US vs Payne.
They cannot deny a citizen entry, that is not true. In the rare case where they need time to break into a phone, they take the phone, and let the citizen in. I'm not sure where you are reading that they are holding citizens for long periods of time, while they break into their phones, but that is disinformation.

Can they detain anyone for a reasonable length of time, yes, that has always been the case. As has searching phones and possessions.

Edit: by the way, that's a good point, to not have facial recognition on your phone. A thief will use that too. Nobody who has anything sensitive should use it.

I do see your point that they can try to break into your phone and get at any apps you have. They can just download the entire phone. But you are not obligated to give them passwords, and they have no right to force you.
Edited:
 
Archer
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Porteroso Porteroso
But you are not obligated to give them passwords, and they have no right to force you.
Again, true, but somewhat misleading. They can take your phone and break into it…

IMG_0637.webp
 
sathomasga
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Porteroso Porteroso
I'm not sure where you are reading that they are holding citizens for long periods of time, while they break into their phones, but that is disinformation.
I’m not saying that it is legal; I have no legal expertise to judge. But clearly CBP thinks they can. Direct quote from the official CBP web page linked above
If the electronic device cannot be inspected because it is protected by a passcode or encryption or other security mechanism, that device may be subject to exclusion, detention, or other appropriate action or disposition. Additionally, the traveler may face longer processing times to allow for CBP to access the contents of the device.
 
Porteroso
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sathomasga sathomasga
I’m not saying that it is legal; I have no legal expertise to judge. But clearly CBP thinks they can. Direct quote from the official CBP web page linked above
Again, they cannot, and they are not claiming they can hold you for an unreasonable amount of time. They can detain you for questioning, or to go through your stuff, the same as they always have been able to, but however long it takes you to get a lawyer involved, is about how long they can hold you. This is where what they can ask of a citizen differs from non citizen. They can detain a non citizen (but not greencard holders or people with express permission to be in the USA) and deny them entry, if they don't comply with the search.
 
Porteroso
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Archer Archer
Again, true, but somewhat misleading. They can take your phone and break into it…

IMG_0637.webp
It's being treated similarly to a piece of locked luggage; they can break the lock and go through it. Something like google password manager might really screw you over, if you use that, so for many, that means access to every digital document available in the cloud. I get it. It's scary, but you still have no obligation to give them passwords to anything.
 
sathomasga
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Porteroso Porteroso
you still have no obligation to give them passwords to anything.
This is absolutely true and has been affirmed by the US Supreme Court. But the question of whether or not they can force you to unlock a phone with your fingerprint or with facial recognition is unresolved. There is currently a circuit split, and although I'm not aware that the Supreme Court has agreed to take either case and resolve that split, presumably they will eventually do so. For now, travelers should assume that CBP will at least attempt such measures. And even if they're later shown to have been illegal, "later" may be too late.

I don't know anything about Android, but all iPhones have a simple procedure that temporarily disables all biometric unlocking. It only takes a few seconds, and you can do it by feel alone while the phone remains locked in your pocket. (Press and hold the side button and either volume button simultaneously for about 2 seconds. You'll feel a haptic feedback (vibration) confirming that Face ID has been temporarily disabled.) Easy to do while you're waiting in line at Customs. Of course, you have to be willing to deal with the consequences of refusing to provide your passcode if asked. There may not be absolute clarity on what those consequences are, but I think we can all agree that they will be unpleasant.
 
Vercingetorix
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There is a thing called the cloud. If worried about it that is your solution.
 
Porteroso
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sathomasga sathomasga
This is absolutely true and has been affirmed by the US Supreme Court. But the question of whether or not they can force you to unlock a phone with your fingerprint or with facial recognition is unresolved. There is currently a circuit split, and although I'm not aware that the Supreme Court has agreed to take either case and resolve that split, presumably they will eventually do so. For now, travelers should assume that CBP will at least attempt such measures. And even if they're later shown to have been illegal, "later" may be too late.

I don't know anything about Android, but all iPhones have a simple procedure that temporarily disables all biometric unlocking. It only takes a few seconds, and you can do it by feel alone while the phone remains locked in your pocket. (Press and hold the side button and either volume button simultaneously for about 2 seconds. You'll feel a haptic feedback (vibration) confirming that Face ID has been temporarily disabled.) Easy to do while you're waiting in line at Customs. Of course, you have to be willing to deal with the consequences of refusing to provide your passcode if asked. There may not be absolute clarity on what those consequences are, but I think we can all agree that they will be unpleasant.
They might ask you several times in a row, and if you say no, they can take your phone indefinitely. There definitely needs to be a new set of privacy laws, especially digital privacy, to counteract all we lost to the Patriot Act.
 
Archer
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Porteroso Porteroso
And what is a reasonable time to be detained is up for grabs, but as I said, any lawyer would make sure it's no longer than a few hours.
I feel this is quite an optimistic take, based on current events...being "home grown" is no protection these days...
 
Porteroso
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Archer Archer
I feel this is quite an optimistic take, based on current events...being "home grown" is no protection these days...
The rights that American citizens have are quite the protection. There is always a battle over abuses of power between individuals and government, but to get back to the point, the government is not checking anyone's bank account when they re-enter the United States. I say anyone, and obviously the exception is when they suspect illegal activity and get a warrant. Other than that, it is largely an honor system to declare purchases.
 
Archer
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Porteroso Porteroso
The rights that American citizens have are quite the protection.
Agreed, but only if people are willing to stand up for them, in all levels of government and the courts. Exercising your rights is routinely seen by LEO's as "being difficult" or "not cooperating" (you don't have to cooperate beyond what the law requires) and there are currently many there who would rather see those pesky rights that are "making their job more difficult" just go away.

You mentioned the Patriot act - restricting rights in the name of patriotism and "safety" is dangerous in the long term, and we are seeing the fruits of that in real time right now.
 
gatorcpa
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Archer Archer
You mentioned the Patriot act - restricting rights in the name of patriotism and "safety" is dangerous in the long term, and we are seeing the fruits of that in real time right now.
ll-not-have-either-one-benjamin-franklin-114-31-06.webp

I wasn't in favor of the Patriot Act when it first was enacted, and I'm still not now. There are risks in everything we do every day. While I'm generally a cautious person, I refuse to allow fear to govern my life, and have no respect for those that take advantage of others' fears.

With respect to the questions raised above about Customs and their ability to go through people electronic devices at the border, it seems to be that the only protection that a passport or a visa gives you is the right for your person to pass at the border. CBP has the right to consider anything that you took with you when you left that comes back with you from abroad as "contraband" until you can prove otherwise. In theory, they can claim the clothes on your back are contraband, seize them, then release your naked personage and nothing else. Obviously, that isn't going to happen in the real world.

With respect to electronic devices, if CBP has reason to believe there is evidence of contraband on your device they can ask you to unlock it. If you refuse, they can then declare that device to be contraband. In such an unlikely circumstance, you can either choose to unlock it voluntarily or leave it behind, just like anything else that is not allowed into the US.

CBP cannot deny a citizen entry unless they have the evidence to charge you with a crime (and give you the Constitutional protections that come with an arrest) or deport you (if you are not a citizen). I'm not sure what CBP can do if you are a lawful permanent resident (green card), but I suspect it's the same as a citizen, except you might have an issue in the future if you apply for full citizenship.

I personally do not trust the current US administration to respect the rights of citizens and non-citizens accorded to them by the US Constitution as it existed prior to its inauguration. This goes back to my comment about taking advantage of others' fears above.
gatorcpa
 
Dan S
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So far, I have not been hearing many anecdotes of CBP harassing or detaining citizens, but there are certainly a large number of verified stories about permanent residents or people with valid visas who have had their devices confiscated, and quite a few people have been detained and turned back. Sometimes for information on their phone that expresses a personal political opinion at odds with the current administration.

I have not heard much of a focus on bank accounts or purchases. It seems to be more ideological. This is generally consistent with the administration in general, e.g. using the Dept of Justice to focus on ideology (e.g. corporate DEI programs) and personal opponents of the administration, instead of white collar crimes (e.g. bribery).
 
pdxleaf
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Porteroso Porteroso
Can you post even a single documented instance of this happening?

I'm actually in Switzerland now. Yesterday my wife and I visited an OF member here and we went to a shooting range. He wore a watch I previously sold him.

20250821_180846.webp 20250821_175202.webp 20250821_175253.webp 20250821_171920.webp 20250821_171627.webp


Maybe I'll have a chance to test our CBP theories on our return.
20250822_102903.webp
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