Forums Latest Members

Unsigned black dial Valjoux VZ in 18k YG

  1. ecarpino Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    133
    Likes
    473
    Dear fellow members,

    I am trying to collect some more information about this unbranded black chronograph which seems to be featuring a Valjoux 22 in a 18k white gold (EDIT: yellow gold) case.

    Tha black dial with the two counters and a telemetre scale is unbranded. It seems in good condition besides the replaced second hand and the top springbar in precarious conditions.

    Does someone know anything about this specific type of watch?

    It is going later on auction and since I am interested in black chronographs from the period, I would like to bid on it. I do not think it holds more value than the Valjoux it has inside and the 18k WG (EDIT: YG) case, but I am happy to hear your opinions.

    Thanks in advance,
    Enzo

    valjoux22 front.jpeg

    movementvaljoux22.jpeg

    back inner valjoux 22.jpeg
     
    Edited Nov 2, 2023
    Waltesefalcon, Fish70 and Zapatta like this.
  2. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    2,701
    Likes
    4,647
    Hi Enzo,

    Firstly, the movement is a Valjoux VZ, which is smaller than the Valjoux 22, and the precursor to the Valjoux 23. Here is a link with more information: https://www.cliniquehorlogere.ch/fr/base-chronos/valjoux-reymond-freres-les-bioux/valjoux-vz.html
    Secondly, are you certain that the case is white gold rather than yellow gold? The photos might be deceptive, but the tone of the case looks quite yellow as compared to the silver-toned movement parts.
    Thirdly, I think that this is a very attractive watch, and worth more than the gold value plus movement value.

    EDIT: P.S. It is the chronograph minute hand that has been replaced. The second hand is on the left.
     
    Fish70, iamvr, Shabbaz and 4 others like this.
  3. ecarpino Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    133
    Likes
    473
    Thanks a lot for the explanation.

    Oh, I thought it was the left the replaced one :D

    What would you say is the story behind it? I find it rather uncommon to find a WG unbranded black dial chronograph from those years, with a nice Valjoux movement. But again, I don't have a lot of experience so I might be wrong.

    EDIT: The watch is in yellow gold, the opener changed the AD.
     
    Edited Nov 2, 2023
  4. Davidt Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    10,532
    Likes
    18,326
    Perhaps a project at a watchmaking school?
     
  5. Mark020 not the sharpest pencil in the ΩF drawer Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    4,871
    Likes
    7,020
    Whatever it is: I really like it. What is the size?
     
    wagudc likes this.
  6. ecarpino Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    133
    Likes
    473
    It’s not clear. He measured it with a metre stick in one picture and it seems around 30mm. Other watches with the same movement are around 33mm. The diameter of the movement itself is 29.5mm

    I bought it in the end :) I’ll share much better pictures when I have it in my hands.
     
    Mark020 likes this.
  7. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    2,701
    Likes
    4,647
    I was a bit hasty with my response about the replaced hand. What I noticed was that the chronograph minute hand looks a bit too long. This made me think that it might be a replacement. As a side note, it looks like its counterpoise has been broken off. Anyway, this is not a major issue.

    I have a memory of seeing some similar watches over the years. I will try to locate photos and post them here. My impression is that they were owned by Japanese collectors/dealers. I would say that unsigned or obscurely-branded chronographs are not so uncommon from this era. This one is especially nice, with a high-quality movement, case, and dial. It should be noted that Longines also used this casemaker (hammer head 119), as seen below. According to David Boettcher's site, "119" corresponds to Gindraux & Co (source: https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/swisspdm.php).

    Source: https://sabiwatches.com/product/1940-longines-flyback-chronograph-ref-4888-in-18k-gold
    upload_2023-11-2_18-50-28.png
    upload_2023-11-2_18-50-47.png
    upload_2023-11-2_18-48-25.png
     
    bardamu, Fish70 and ecarpino like this.
  8. Dan S Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    19,019
    Likes
    43,707
    Looks like yellow gold in the photos. I don't think there is any particular story behind it. Anonymous chronographs with Valjoux movements show up here and there.
     
    ecarpino likes this.
  9. ecarpino Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    133
    Likes
    473
    Wow that’s very valuable information, thank you for that.

    I’ll have it serviced when I receive it so the hand issue will be fixed. I’ll probably assist to the service as well since the watchmaker is a friend of mine and he services a lot of Valjoux :) will be fun to see.
    And please feel free to share other pictures if you might find them.

    As per Dan’s comment, indeed the seller corrected the advertisement, it’s yellow gold.
     
    DirtyDozen12 and Dan S like this.
  10. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Nov 2, 2023

    Posts
    2,701
    Likes
    4,647
    Fish70, rbob99, ecarpino and 4 others like this.
  11. ecarpino Nov 4, 2023

    Posts
    133
    Likes
    473
    @DirtyDozen12 thanks a lot for the pictures, very informative. So interesting that a lot of these pieces are in Japan.

    The watch has arrived and it’s just wow! Much better than in the pictures he added, the gilt dial is amazing:

    IMG_3662.jpeg

    The top spring bar is out of the lug so I would need to find a goldsmith to put it back together. Everything else is working but I would service it anyway.

    IMG_3667.jpeg
     
    YYTIN, Larry S, Fish70 and 3 others like this.
  12. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Nov 4, 2023

    Posts
    2,701
    Likes
    4,647
    Thanks for sharing these photos. The dial looks fantastic and glossy. Sharp-looking bezel, too.
     
    ecarpino and Larry S like this.
  13. ecarpino Nov 20, 2023

    Posts
    133
    Likes
    473
    Hi guys, just a small update from my side with a couple more pictures of this lovely dial.

    The watch is going through a service (and a goldsmith is working on that broken lug).

    IMG_3981.jpeg IMG_3983.jpeg
     
    bardamu, slique12, iamvr and 4 others like this.