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Unsigned black dial Valjoux VZ in 18k YG

ecarpino
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Dear fellow members,

I am trying to collect some more information about this unbranded black chronograph which seems to be featuring a Valjoux 22 in a 18k white gold (EDIT: yellow gold) case.

Tha black dial with the two counters and a telemetre scale is unbranded. It seems in good condition besides the replaced second hand and the top springbar in precarious conditions.

Does someone know anything about this specific type of watch?

It is going later on auction and since I am interested in black chronographs from the period, I would like to bid on it. I do not think it holds more value than the Valjoux it has inside and the 18k WG (EDIT: YG) case, but I am happy to hear your opinions.

Thanks in advance,
Enzo

valjoux22 front.jpeg movementvaljoux22.jpeg back inner valjoux 22.jpeg
Edited:
 
DirtyDozen12
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Hi Enzo,

Firstly, the movement is a Valjoux VZ, which is smaller than the Valjoux 22, and the precursor to the Valjoux 23. Here is a link with more information: https://www.cliniquehorlogere.ch/fr/base-chronos/valjoux-reymond-freres-les-bioux/valjoux-vz.html
Secondly, are you certain that the case is white gold rather than yellow gold? The photos might be deceptive, but the tone of the case looks quite yellow as compared to the silver-toned movement parts.
Thirdly, I think that this is a very attractive watch, and worth more than the gold value plus movement value.

EDIT: P.S. It is the chronograph minute hand that has been replaced. The second hand is on the left.
 
ecarpino
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DirtyDozen12 DirtyDozen12
Hi Enzo,

Firstly, the movement is a Valjoux VZ, which is smaller than the Valjoux 22, and the precursor to the Valjoux 23. Here is a link with more information: https://www.cliniquehorlogere.ch/fr/base-chronos/valjoux-reymond-freres-les-bioux/valjoux-vz.html
Secondly, are you certain that the case is white gold rather than yellow gold? The photos might be deceptive, but the tone of the case looks quite yellow as compared to the silver-toned movement parts.
Thirdly, I think that this is a very attractive watch, and worth more than the gold value plus movement value.

EDIT: P.S. It is the chronograph minute hand that has been replaced. The second hand is on the left.
Thanks a lot for the explanation.

Oh, I thought it was the left the replaced one 😁

What would you say is the story behind it? I find it rather uncommon to find a WG unbranded black dial chronograph from those years, with a nice Valjoux movement. But again, I don't have a lot of experience so I might be wrong.

EDIT: The watch is in yellow gold, the opener changed the AD.
Edited:
 
Davidt
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Perhaps a project at a watchmaking school?
 
Mark020
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Whatever it is: I really like it. What is the size?
 
ecarpino
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Mark020 Mark020
Whatever it is: I really like it. What is the size?
It’s not clear. He measured it with a metre stick in one picture and it seems around 30mm. Other watches with the same movement are around 33mm. The diameter of the movement itself is 29.5mm

I bought it in the end 😀 I’ll share much better pictures when I have it in my hands.
 
DirtyDozen12
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ecarpino ecarpino
Thanks a lot for the explanation.

Oh, I thought it was the left the replaced one 😁

What would you say is the story behind it? I find it rather uncommon to find a WG unbranded black dial chronograph from those years, with a nice Valjoux movement. But again, I don't have a lot of experience so I might be wrong.

EDIT: The watch is in yellow gold, the opener changed the AD.
I was a bit hasty with my response about the replaced hand. What I noticed was that the chronograph minute hand looks a bit too long. This made me think that it might be a replacement. As a side note, it looks like its counterpoise has been broken off. Anyway, this is not a major issue.

I have a memory of seeing some similar watches over the years. I will try to locate photos and post them here. My impression is that they were owned by Japanese collectors/dealers. I would say that unsigned or obscurely-branded chronographs are not so uncommon from this era. This one is especially nice, with a high-quality movement, case, and dial. It should be noted that Longines also used this casemaker (hammer head 119), as seen below. According to David Boettcher's site, "119" corresponds to Gindraux & Co (source: https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/swisspdm.php).

Source: https://sabiwatches.com/product/1940-longines-flyback-chronograph-ref-4888-in-18k-gold
upload_2023-11-2_18-50-28.png upload_2023-11-2_18-50-47.png upload_2023-11-2_18-48-25.png
 
Dan S
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Looks like yellow gold in the photos. I don't think there is any particular story behind it. Anonymous chronographs with Valjoux movements show up here and there.
 
ecarpino
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DirtyDozen12 DirtyDozen12
I was a bit hasty with my response about the replaced hand. What I noticed was that the chronograph minute hand looks a bit too long. This made me think that it might be a replacement. As a side note, it looks like its counterpoise has been broken off. Anyway, this is not a major issue.

I have a memory of seeing some similar watches over the years. I will try to locate photos and post them here. My impression is that they were owned by Japanese collectors/dealers. I would say that unsigned or obscurely-branded chronographs are not so uncommon from this era. This one is especially nice, with a high-quality movement, case, and dial. It should be noted that Longines also used this casemaker (hammer head 119), as seen below. According to David Boettcher's site, "119" corresponds to Gindraux & Co (source: https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/swisspdm.php).

Source: https://sabiwatches.com/product/1940-longines-flyback-chronograph-ref-4888-in-18k-gold
upload_2023-11-2_18-50-28.png upload_2023-11-2_18-50-47.png upload_2023-11-2_18-48-25.png
Wow that’s very valuable information, thank you for that.

I’ll have it serviced when I receive it so the hand issue will be fixed. I’ll probably assist to the service as well since the watchmaker is a friend of mine and he services a lot of Valjoux 😀 will be fun to see.
And please feel free to share other pictures if you might find them.

As per Dan’s comment, indeed the seller corrected the advertisement, it’s yellow gold.
 
ecarpino
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@DirtyDozen12 thanks a lot for the pictures, very informative. So interesting that a lot of these pieces are in Japan.

The watch has arrived and it’s just wow! Much better than in the pictures he added, the gilt dial is amazing:

IMG_3662.jpeg


The top spring bar is out of the lug so I would need to find a goldsmith to put it back together. Everything else is working but I would service it anyway.

IMG_3667.jpeg
 
DirtyDozen12
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Thanks for sharing these photos. The dial looks fantastic and glossy. Sharp-looking bezel, too.
 
ecarpino
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Hi guys, just a small update from my side with a couple more pictures of this lovely dial.

The watch is going through a service (and a goldsmith is working on that broken lug).

IMG_3981.jpeg IMG_3983.jpeg
 
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