Universal Geneve Compur 5150

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Hello all,

I recently bought the following Universal from a reputable seller in Italy. I have seen ones similar to it with Roman numeral dials, but never one that had a Roman numeral dial AND the earlier flat bezel case. I'm curious to know if any of you have seen a similar watch out there in the wild. Here are some photos from the original listing - I can take more photos of the watch if needed but these should suffice for now.

 
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Rare bird. I don't think there is a relation between the bezel and the Roman numeral. Dial in itself looks legit
 
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Thank you Mark - I've lurked this forum for a while and appreciate your expertise on Universal. The point I was trying to make with the bezel and the roman numerals was that I've seen quite a few similar dials with Roman Numeral layouts, although they appear to be in later cases, not the flat bezel cases that appeared on earlier watches. I realize there is so much variation and inconsistency with Universal and I've never seen one like this. Thanks for the help.
 
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I've seen more around these serials.
 
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Great vintage Chronograph. Just perfect. Congrats.
 
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I've had a few Compur from around this time period, although both serials are a bit earlier (629XXX and 645XXX) than yours and the dial style is completely different, so not much help. I'll include the white one below.
I'm assuming this pic from ebay below is your same watch? Zoomed in close there's some things on the dial that seem odd. I'm not saying it's a redial, I'm just saying I've been staring at it for a long time now, and I'm not completely settled.

 
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I've had a few Compur from around this time period, although both serials are a bit earlier (629XXX and 645XXX) than yours and the dial style is completely different, so not much help. I'll include the white one below.
I'm assuming this pic from ebay below is your same watch? Zoomed in close there's some things on the dial that seem odd. I'm not saying it's a redial, I'm just saying I've been staring at it for a long time now, and I'm not completely settled.

Nice compur! Yes thats correct the one from ebay is the same one that I showed in my original post. The seller posted it both on ebay and chrono24. I was chatting with Mark020 through PMs and he's said hes seen a few others like this. I believe the dial to be original and one that Universal offered at the time although I've only come across one other one in gold thats a blatant redial (with swiss made at the bottom).

https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctio...mpur-base-1000-chronograph-wristwatch-34-5-mm
 
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Bukowski's one is of course a redial, as well as this example, unfortunately.
 
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Aww...you live and learn I guess...thats why I should always consult the forum here. What are the tells that give this away as a redial if I might ask? The subdials? Seems like a rather old re-dial I might say.
 
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M marc92
Aww...you live and learn I guess...thats why I should always consult the forum here. What are the tells that give this away as a redial if I might ask? The subdials? Seems like a rather old re-dial I might say.
Spacing/detail of outer dial is problematic but overall, as I said, the look is great. You will need to learn to love and live with ambiguity on this one.
 
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M marc92
Aww...you live and learn I guess...thats why I should always consult the forum here. What are the tells that give this away as a redial if I might ask? The subdials? Seems like a rather old re-dial I might say.
Just have a look at subdials fonts! They have a shaky and imprecise shape, as does the minute track – for example, the 3s are awful, I've never seen such crude fonts in UG. But really, everything about it screams for a reprint.

If the seller is a professional, as I believe, here in Italy we have a legal time window during which you can withdraw from the purchase without having to give any explanation — the seller cannot refuse. I recommend writing to them right away. When did you buy the watch?
 
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Just have a look at subdials fonts! They have a shaky and imprecise shape, as does the minute track – for example, the 3s are awful, I've never seen such crude fonts in UG. But really, everything about it screams for a reprint.

If the seller is a professional, as I believe, here in Italy we have a legal time window during which you can withdraw from the purchase without having to give any explanation — the seller cannot refuse. I recommend writing to them right away. When did you buy the watch?
Hmm, the 3s dont appear to be a direct giveaway to me and the styling of the 3s appears to be consistent among the dial. To me what is suspect is the outer dial as Larry mentioned in a previous post. I purchased the watch maybe a month ago. What I am curious about is how the watch has as much patina as it has, yet it appears to be a redial. Is it possibly an older redial? I will inquire with the seller when I get a chance. To be fair, I'm not even positive that this dial layout even existed during the time period. I ordered a copy of Sala's book and I am going to see if I can cross-reference.
 
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M marc92
Aww...you live and learn I guess...thats why I should always consult the forum here. What are the tells that give this away as a redial if I might ask? The subdials? Seems like a rather old re-dial I might say.
I guess Matt is taking a more blunt approach than me 😆
It's the kind of dial that looks fine from a distance and at first glance, like in the first photo you posted. But if you dig into the details, everything just starts looking wrong the more you look at it.
The UG and Compur text if you zoom in, not good.
The subdial fonts, not good.
The running seconds subdial centering is quite off.
The outer track is wonky.
The word that Matt used and I think best overall describes this dial is ................"shaky".
Original dial print should be crisp and precise.
However this could be the kind of dial people may argue about, and if you go back to the seller he may completely dismiss the so called forum "experts", etc and insist the dial is original.
What I will say, it's always more difficult to evaluate a dial by itself, it's much easier to make direct comparisons. So the best possible research you can do if you want to investigate further is ideally find this exact dial elsewhere, or at least very similar dial from this time period. If you cannot find such a dial, that also tells you something. (Some may say the print quality on this example does not even justify or necessitate further research, but I'm just talking generally).
I had a look through Sala and could not find anything useful.
In reviewing everything that has passed through my hands, the closest I could find was this roman compur 30, however it is later serial (728XXX) and different dial style, so not much help. But it is an example of overall crispness and print quality from an original dial, for comparison.
I would be confident to say your example is an older redial, and if anyone insists otherwise, my response would be, show me another same or similar dial for comparison. IMO discussions centered around reviewing actual examples are more useful than exchanging opinions.

 
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Thank you bgrisso for the in-depth explanation. I will see if I can contact the seller and return the watch. If he refuses, (pricey) lesson learned, but I will probably end up keeping the watch for myself.

Were older re-dials sometimes done on completely blank new dials at the time? I'm curious to know more about the redial process in general.
 
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M marc92
Thank you bgrisso for the in-depth explanation. I will see if I can contact the seller and return the watch. If he refuses, (pricey) lesson learned, but I will probably end up keeping the watch for myself.

Were older re-dials sometimes done on completely blank new dials at the time? I'm curious to know more about the redial process in general.
redials were normally done on the existing dial, not blanks. The dial needs to be the exact size and shape and the dial feet need to be in the exact position, so probably easier to just redo the dial that you know will fit rather than starting fresh. Dial would have been stripped and reprinted. Was very common service, and no one was concerned about originality back in the day.