Universal Geneve - Compur 30 "RLM"

[PhilipvD]

Hi UG Fans

Edited: Sep 8, 2017

 

[jfwoodman]

I know nothing about it, but I like it! Classic military piece. Interesting how the case is notched at the crown. I've never seen that before.

 

[LouS]

Ref 22409 ReichsLuftsfahrMinisterium
Case may or may not be authentic (I am not enough of an expert on the RLM-Nav engraving, but the case shape, references and serial number are correct), but its charm is compromised by the dial, which looks to be a crude redial. Fonts are wrong and the double minute and seconds tracks are wrong on both the main dial and subdials. Original would have been lumed of course.

Edited: Jul 29, 2015

 

[ELV web]

PhilipvD

Thank you LouS, I wrote an email to Konrad Knirim and he confirms the authenticity of the watch. Do you know why it has the 3-6-9-12 markings on the subdial? And what is that exactly for?

So in this kind of watch does being redialed the same as most other watch? Edit: I have no idea what a genuine dial should look like but I can see LoUs point that the clarity of the fonts and subdial points to it being redialed.

 

[jordn]

ELV web

So in this kind of watch does being redialed the same as most other watch?

At least from talking to military watch aficionados it seems like re-lume jobs (or no lume in this case) aren't necessarily considered depreciating factors in evaluating value, but a redial like this is a no-no like with any other watch. Like LouS pointed out, the font and the minute/seconds track is very off.

PhilipvD

What would be also interesting to know is why it has 3-6-9-12 markings instead of the usual 3-6-9

I'm assuming that it is an arbitrary expansion of the payphone markings, but if anyone could illuminate to us a military significance in the additional "12", it would certainly be fascinating.

 

[JimInOz]

jordn

At least from talking to military watch aficionados it seems like re-lume jobs (or no lume in this case) aren't necessarily considered depreciating factors in evaluating value, but a redial like this is a no-no like with any other watch. Like LouS pointed out, the font and the minute/seconds track is very off.


I'm assuming that it is an arbitrary expansion of the payphone markings, but if anyone could illuminate to us a military significance in the additional "12", it would certainly be fascinating.

A good explanation here. By "Happy jack" on WUS.

I used to be a Royal Navy Navigator, and we always used to mark our charts for projected future times along our track by DR (dead reckoning) or EP (estimated positions) calculation, in time intervals that were simple multiples or fractions of six minutes. The reason was very simple - a 6 minutes is 1/10th of an hour. So if you ship is doing 15 knots (15 nautical miles per hour), in 6 minutes it will do 1.5 nautical miles. Depending on the scale of the chart in use, you might want to mark the chart every 3 minutes, or every 12. In the same way, we'd aim to fix our position at 6 minute (or 3 or 12 minute) intervals since we could then very quickly calculate the speed made good - as being 10 times (or 20 times or 5 times) the distance covered between adjacent fixes.

So I suspect that the 3 minute interval markings on the chrono may be to assist with navigation calculations...

 

[LouS]

PhilipvD

Thank you LouS, I wrote an email to Konrad Knirim and he confirms the authenticity of the watch.

You are showing me a picture of the exact same watch to validate that it is authentic? 😕 Best to compare it to other examples.

PhilipvD

Do you know why it has the 3-6-9-12 markings on the subdial? And what is that exactly for?

It is a redialer's mistake, simply.

http://ink361.com/app/users/ig-1100773905/noodiawatch/photos/ig-1034647177902492662_1100773905

Perhaps the owner of that example would care to comment? @Noodia

 

[LouS]

And when did you buy your watch in relation to the publication date of Mr. Knirim's (simply awesome) book?

Is the six digit number beginning with "8" the same? You have yours obscured.

 

[ICONO]

LouS

And when did you buy your watch in relation to the publication date of Mr. Knirim's (simply awesome) book?

Is the six digit number beginning with "8" the same? You have yours obscured.

Coincidentally, there is a mark on the upper right lug, ( when seen from the back ), that exactly matches the mark on the upper right lug, in the illustration, in the book.

As I said, coincidence.

 

[ELV web]

Could it be mr. Knirim sold you the watch? I think it doesn't hurt to ask him whether he was the seller at the German auction or not.

 

[nicolas07]

Quite inetresting discussion indeed on a very nice UG ref.
However, I am also a bit concerned by the dial as it seems to me that "60" in the second subdial is not centered (as we can see in the picture from the book too)... and font is indeed far from what we typically saw in UG production

 

[LouS]

PhilipvD

It's not the exact same watch! Its an image out of a book from Mr. Knirim.

PhilipvD

I bought it last week at a small German auction house. The number beginning with the 8 has a few different numbers.

That's odd. The RLM number is the same. How do you think that might have happened?🍿

Here are three other examples:



The watch in the instagram link above


An example from Sala:



this watch

 

[Dre]

Seems to be the only one with pointed 'A' as well apart from all the things above

 

[woodwkr2]

Well done. I've been gone for too long.

 

[LouS]

PhilipvD

Not the same watch...

Phil, the case number of your watch is 805020. The case number of the watch in Knirim is 805020.




I'm beginning to see a pattern here
https://omegaforums.net/threads/ultra-rare-universal-geneve-or-fake-please-help.21051/

 

[Dre]

woodwkr2

Well done. I've been gone for too long.

Indeed you have, I was just about to start a thread wondering where is the legendary @woodwkr2 is

 

[jordn]

drechristian

Indeed you have, I was just about to start a thread wondering where is the legendary @woodwkr2 is

It would be a more interesting thread than this one

 

[PhilipvD]

jordn

It would be a more interesting thread than this one

Thanks mate. Reeeally appriciate your input here

 

[jordn]

PhilipvD

Thanks mate. Reeeally appriciate your input here

Not really sure why you took that as a personal affront. As he is an invaluable reservoir of knowledge in these topics, Byron's absence is more than worth noting.

PhilipvD

So let's presume, that the dail is not original. Is there a way to change it back?

On another note. I think it is original because it's a different version of the instagram watches you guys compare it to.

PhilipvD

Lol the other watch wasnt mine. Was just curious. So let's say the watch is the same. (Can't really read the numbers) Isn't that a good sign?

More on topic - going by your replies, you are obviously not hearing the answers that you would like to hear. As a fellow collector, I am truly sorry that you bought a watch that has a refinished dial (and I do mean it), but if you had started a thread like this before buying the watch, your inquiry would certainly not be considered pointless.

 

[LouS]

Something magical has happened here. We have just organically written the horological version of the Dead Parrot Sketch

PhilipvD

I wrote an email to Konrad Knirim and he confirms the authenticity of the watch.

LouS

You are showing me a picture of the exact same watch to validate that it is authentic

PhilipvD

It's not the exact same watch! Its an image out of a book from Mr. Knirim.
I bought it last week at a small German auction house. The number beginning with the 8 has a few different numbers.

ICONO

Coincidentally, there is a mark on the upper right lug, ( when seen from the back ), that exactly matches the mark on the upper right lug, in the illustration, in the book.

PhilipvD

Good point will find out, but the caseback reference is different from the watch in the picture.

LouS

That's odd. The RLM number is the same. How do you think that might have happened?🍿

PhilipvD

Not the same watch...

LouS

Phil, the case number of your watch is 805020. The case number of the watch in Knirim is 805020.

PhilipvD

Can't really read the numbers