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UG Compur 22431 with a "Panda" dial

  1. firstrubu Mar 13, 2017

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    I believed I had found my personal Vintage find of 2017. But I cannot find a UG Compur That matches the one I found. I asked around on the Dutch watch forum and there were a few people not convinced of the originality of this watch. But they also said to ask around on Omegaforums because you guys may have more knowledge.

    I have been offered a UG Compur watch by a relative. it was a watch from the father of a friend.
    It was given to him in WWII when he saved the lives of two Italian Officers.
    It was given to him in 1941 and he has treasured it since. Unfortunately no proof of any kind about the story though.

    The watch has a "panda" dial which I have never seen before. It is optically in very good shape. Technically it should be working ok but no service history available. this moment the watch is on its way to me and I only have the sellers pictures.

    For what info I could find about the case reference I believe the watch matches the numbers. But I am far from an expert.

    Please shoot IMG_8735.JPG IMG_8740.JPG IMG_8741.JPG IMG_8738.JPG IMG_8737.JPG IMG_8736.JPG IMG_8739.JPG
     
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  2. ELV web Mar 13, 2017

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    Same era watches for your comparison. I have not seen a panda before, but the fonts etc. look okay to me on yours. I would say a nice find ;) one caveat is the centre chronograph hand should have been a replacement, and I also have doubts on the centre minute and hour hands which looks like replacements as well.
     
    IMG_3844.JPG IMG_7419.JPG
  3. Florent Mar 13, 2017

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    Hours, minutes and chrono hands are wrongs.
    I have strong doubts about this dial ...
     
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  4. rolokr Mar 13, 2017

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    Lets see what Dean has to say, Diabolik's opinions are usually spot on. Lou's opinions I value as well ! Some of the European collectors should know if the dial is legit ?
     
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  5. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Mar 13, 2017

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    If that were authentic, I believe it would be the first inverse panda dial by a very long mile. I'm going to need convincing.
     
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  6. gop76 Mar 13, 2017

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    Joining to the skeptical group
     
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  7. Mlafra Mar 14, 2017

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    Central chrono hand incorrect pretty much for sure, but not so convinced the hour and minute hands are incorrect.
    Siringue-type hands are known to have been used on UG and also the fact that these are luminous as the dial seems to be could suggest authenticity. Moreover their length is spot-on hence I am not 100% sure but I honestly wouldn't dismiss them, they could be correct and original.
    Another thing that points to their possible authenticity: if the dial is indeed correct (more to that below) then it makes sense that they are not dark/stick hands but steel colored, as that helps legibility above a dark dial. I bet the original central chrono hand not only was the same classic shape as all UG central chrono hands but also it was steel.
    Onto the dial: if this is authentic then I agree with LouS that this would be the first (inverse) panda dial by a long shot: previously this was thought to be the Breitling SuperOcean ref 2005 from 1958, hence this would be it by more than 15y.
    There are no obvious sign this is a redial to be honest...the font looks absolutely correct and they are very crisp, as are both subdials and scales on the external perimeter .
    Even though I am not 110% convinced myself, I vote for all original a part from central chrono hand: the only reason I am not 110% convinced is only because I have never seen one before like that, but I cannot honestly find any objective things that are clearly wrong with it (a part again for the central chrono hand).
    Put it this way: if the opener doesn't get it I will be interested in buying it, just to show that I put my money were my mouth is (as we say in financial markets).
     
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  8. ELV web Mar 14, 2017

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    +1
     
  9. valjoux72 Mar 14, 2017

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    Wow, maybe the first reverse panda dial ever. That would be an incredible find!!
    DIBS from me, so @firstrubu if you ever want to sell please do informe before selling
     
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  10. m84 Mar 14, 2017

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    Hi,
    I'm no expert on any of this, UG especially, but given the comments of a few members, I have a few points of concern regarding the dial which i have marked on this enlarged photo. Feel free to tell me I'm just speculating but there are a few things slightly 'off'.
    Namely, the quality of printing around the subdials, the difference in font weight in the numbers in the subdials (on the right seems painted over), the ink seems to be smudging over the 12 an 6 applied markers.
    This could just be my inexperience talking so take it with a pinch of salt! ;)

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Mlafra Mar 14, 2017

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    To be fair I dont agree with you. The ink on the applied markers at 6 and 12 I dont think is ink at all, I think it is decayed luminous material that has "dried out" over the decades. As for the quality of the subial printing I see no difference compared to the other 2 examples shown in the thread.
    UG dials are known for not being of perfectly quality, slight differences in font/printing are acceptable especially in the 30s and 40s.
     
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  12. firstrubu Mar 14, 2017

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    Thank you all for your input. @Mlafra specially thanks for your substantiated thoughts.

    Since the story of the watch is that it was given by Italian Officers in WWII. Is it possible this was a special Desire of the Italian Army to put on lumed syringe hands? This idea makes sense to me but I do not know if UG delivered to the Italian Army. I know they delivered to the Dutch and US Army.
    For what I have seen they have lumed syringe hands.

    Is it possible to get an extract of archives from UG? I know they did not make it through the quartz era and they were sold and bought by investors which did not make it better. Do the archives still exist?
    And if it is possible what information is in there?
    I know Omega gives information about to which country the watch went first. This could back or unback the story.

    There is a picture of another "panda like" UG with 285 movement from the 40's in the "UG-Bible" from Pietro Sala.
    IMG_8759.JPG
     
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  13. m84 Mar 14, 2017

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    Hi Mlafra, I'm not talking about the 'ink' of the actual markers, but the fact of what appears to be black ink from the dial creeping in quite a bit on those markers.
    Also, I never thought that these markers were lumed ones at all... I mean, wouldn't applied markers that would've had lume on them have some sort of groove for the lume material to be applied, like a frame around them?
    You are right about the 2 examples in the thread, and I know we're talking about a very old watch,but still... I can show you also other examples where these sort of discrepancies aren't so notorious.

    Cheers,
     
  14. Diabolik Mar 14, 2017

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    I think it has all been said and it is not looking good. I am going with LouS on this one. Although a nice concept and design, It would have been unheard and quite novel in the late 30s early 40s, regretfully, for me is a no-no ...

    Other points are perfectly valid; smudgy fonts, open sixes and nines, badly centered tachy and seconds scale (space at 12 is far bigger than space at 6 which implies an ovality although subtle - new concept in dial layout?), hands and the list goes on. Sorry, big doughnut here. It may have started out as a UG but it not one as we know it now ...
     
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  15. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member Mar 14, 2017

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    Not worth the ink they are written with from what I have seen. You describe all aspects of your watch, they put it all on UG letterhead and there's your extract.
     
  16. Mlafra Mar 14, 2017

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    Fair enough, I think we can agree to disagree here.
    I honestly don't see such smudgy fonts, open sixes and nines do not represent an issue (closed ones would be more problematic) and I cannot stress enough the diversity of dial suppliers and dial quality variability that UG had during 30s and 40s.
    Hands might have been replaced (or relumed at some point, at least the hour hand).
    But on the dial I stay firm on my originality opinion. As per the minute and tachy tracking not being perfectly centralized, we would need to see the watch live and without glass. That glass distorts a lot as one can see from last picture and hence it could well be an optical illusion.
    For example if you take the 5th picture and turn it to look like the 6th picture, this "ovality" is less pronounced.

    As for the Extracts I totally agree with LouS, totally useless. They could be useful to certify date of production and that's pretty much it.
     
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  17. Dre Mar 14, 2017

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    They don't even certify the date, just the year. And I bet Mr. Garcia uses this table below to obtain the year, just like the rest of us. It was only $20 to get the extract just a bit more than a year ago, last time I heard it was around $200 a few months back. Not worth the money just for a letterhead.

    UG serial numbers.jpg
     
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  18. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Mar 15, 2017

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    Not sure if this ads anything to the discussion.
    p1.JPG p2.JPG
     
  19. ELV web Mar 15, 2017

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    It does show another sample that is panda like and looks legitimate.... is that yours? Super nice man.
     
  20. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Mar 15, 2017

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    Not mine. I questioned this one when I first saw it but the evidence is mounting...
     
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