UG compax reference 22209

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Diabolik

·Aug 11, 2015

I like this one but get a gut feeling that there is something not quite right. The reference is well documented. I am dubious of the "swiss made" at 6 o' clock and the font that is used (compax and universal geneve). It does look like pushers are also mis-matched (not 1940's for sure) ...

Opinions?

Edited: Aug 11, 2015

 

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ELV web

·Aug 11, 2015

"Universal Geneve" and "Compax" looks repainted, feels like an older redial with good character. Also Chrono second hand is not the right one....

Edit: as others point out, I am wrong, it is original dial.

Edited: Aug 11, 2015

 

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Diabolik

·Aug 11, 2015

Could it be this one ?

In that case,it is completely wrong ...

 

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TTB

·Aug 11, 2015

Hi guys, this is my watch so I feel free to comment. I have done some research before I bought it.The ref 22209 is used by Universal Geneve and girard Perregaux. The UG ones have a UG case back (like mine), the GP have a GP logo on the CB.
The picture above is from a GP dialed one.
Swiss Made is indeed a bit 'odd' but both the GP and UG dials of this reference use it. I talked to some collectors and they were sure the dial is original.
Please look at this watch from a well respected dealer/collector with exact same ref and a serial number only 150 away from mine:

https://instagram.com/p/vjhhFByBKp/?taken-by=triplealbi
http://www.chrono24.nl/universalgen...=1&dosearch=true&urlSubpath=/search/index.htm

A close-up of my dial:

 

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Northernman

·Aug 11, 2015·Lemaniac

Diabolik

Could it be this one ?

In that case,it is completely wrong ...

Remember that the references with UG only relates to the case/movement and not the dial.
You will find a multitude of dial designs used within one case reference. It goes so far that I have a Universal Geneve ref 7066 with a "Berthoud Geneve" dial. In Sala's book you can also find examples of UG an Zenith sharing reference numbers, but with different dial designs.

 

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TTB

·Aug 11, 2015

Indeed... Case/dials/movements are often exactly the same with: UG/Jaeger/Zenith/ GP/Berthoud/... in the 1930's and 40's.
I have this Jaeger with really rare hinged case, 285 caliber and black dial. The dial lay-out is EXACTLY the same as the UG and Berthoud models from that era.

 

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Diabolik

·Aug 11, 2015

I understand.

However, the case is not correct either though. I have never seen those pushers on any UG and definitely not a 1940's. At best we have a case with parts that are not correct and a mixture of hands on a dial that is supposedly correct.

One point that stands out, is that GP always signed their dials "swiss made" while Universal used "swiss" at six o clock.

 

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Northernman

·Aug 11, 2015·Lemaniac

The shape of the pushers does look odd. However UG pioneered waterproof chronographs, and my ref 7066 dates from 1936-1938 have round/waterproof style pushers. I have this confirmed by catalog images and case serial.

 

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Northernman

·Aug 11, 2015·Lemaniac

 

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nicolas07

·Aug 11, 2015

For me pushers look strange as they are not round but "grooved/serrated"... But I might be wrong.
Hands look relumed too...but I don't mean to interfere in the current sale...

 

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Northernman

·Aug 11, 2015·Lemaniac

nicolas07

For me pushers look strange as they are not round but "grooved/serrated"... But I might be wrong.
Hands look relumed too...but I don't mean to interfere in the current sale...

+1. The hands have clearly been relumed. Not unusual or a big issue for me personally, however I would have liked them color matched to the dial lume.

 

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jordn

·Aug 11, 2015

The dial is an un-refinished, two-tone variant, and as mentioned above, hour and minute hands are re-lumed and the sweep second chrono hand is incorrect.

nicolas07

For me pushers look strange as they are not round but "grooved/serrated"... But I might be wrong.

You are certainly not wrong. Universal Geneve never used fluted pushers of any kind. Here is an old thread by Byron where he accounts for all of the different types of pushers.

 

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Modest_Proposal

·Aug 11, 2015

IMO dial is original and attractive. Can't vouch for the pushers. Hands look relumed.

 

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vinn2

·Aug 11, 2015

it looks good

 

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Diabolik

·Aug 12, 2015

The close up of the dial is far more convincing than the original image.

The hands however don't just look re-lumed (which is not necessarily an issue in my eyes if done conscientiously), they look like they have had a paint job too. They do not look like they were painted by a professional. It all looks a bit messy.Second hand is a 60's replacement. I am unsure if they are service replacements as every image I have seen (catalog and reference documentation) shows a different handset

The pushers are replacements and that would be an issue for a collector.

I am still a little unsure with the "swiss made" at six o clock and will research that.

Desirability?
Value?
Thoughts?

 

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Modest_Proposal

·Aug 12, 2015

Check out this very similar dial.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIRARD-PERR...-MENS-WATCH-/141738880832?hash=item21004baf40

 

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Northernman

·Aug 12, 2015·Lemaniac

Modest_Proposal

Check out this very similar dial.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GIRARD-PERR...-MENS-WATCH-/141738880832?hash=item21004baf40

That's a nice watch at a good price?!

 

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Diabolik

·Aug 12, 2015

very nice indeed and a good original example...

a comparison or GP and UG below. different

models but same era ...

 

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TTB

·Dec 7, 2015

Alright, this one again... I had the movement completely serviced by my watchmaker and he fitted an original secondhand. I put it up for sale on Chronocentric and someone commented that the dial was a fake/reprint/partial reprint,...



There aren't many 22209's around with a Universal dial/case back. The ones I found have an exact dial like mine. Different patina, but same fonts etc. From a known Italian dealer:



The GP signed ones have a similiar but different dial.



Are all the UG signed dials reprints? I do know that the ones I saw with a UG dial also have a UG case back while the GP's have GP signed case backs.

Opinions, thoughts, proof?

 

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Northernman

·Dec 7, 2015·Lemaniac

No real confirmation either way, but there's a lot of misconceptions related to UG dials!🤔

The main reason is that the reference of a UG chronograph does not relate to the dial or hands. It is related to the case and movement. Hence, you will find several different dial/ designs under the same reference number.
It is also very unfortunate that too many forum members jumps up and shouts "redial" without really having the knowledge to do so (and without telling WHY they conclude this way).

As for your watch,if it has been redialed, it have been done extremely professionally!
There is a discrepancy between the Italian Chrono24 dial and yours in the printing of "Swiss Made" and the fonts/width of the "COMPAX" text.
No conclusive evidence apart from that I am afraid.

For all but the most picky of us (and there are a few in here), I would say it is a lovely looking example (redial or not)!
👍