Tudor Submariner "No Crown Guard"

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Cos270

·Jan 6, 2022

Came across this on eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/393836019344

Personally, I really dig subs/divers without crown guards, despite the "loss" in functionality. I'm far from an expert on vintage Rolex or Tudor, though. I'm partial to Tudor and if the choice is between a vintage sub and a brand new black bay (I like the smaller BB36), I'd be tempted to pick the vintage. I'm expecting this to be a frankenwatch based on the pics and description, but the price is tempting...

Any Tudor or Rolex aficionados want to chime in? Run away, or make an offer (knowing the many flaws)?

 

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impalla62ss

·Jan 6, 2022

It is best to post pictures, so the images can be seen after the post is gone.

 

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Cos270

·Jan 6, 2022

impalla62ss

It is best to post pictures, so the images can be seen after the post is gone.

Thanks, much appreciated! Couldn't figure out a good way to do that from eBay. Still getting used to OF...

 

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Dan S

·Jan 6, 2022

My first thought is that this is entirely fake.

 

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Cos270

·Jan 6, 2022

Dan S

My first thought is that this is entirely fake.

Certainly crossed my mind!

 

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Canuck

·Jan 6, 2022

Very early Rolex Submariner cases didn’t have crown guards. Since Rolex and Tudor shared cases on the Submariner models, this one looks legitimate to me. If the case style number stamped inside the case back was made available, it could be checked out. I would think this one might be mid to late 1950s.

 

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Dan S

·Jan 6, 2022

Canuck

Very early Rolex Submariner cases didn’t have crown guards. Since Rolex and Tudor shared cases on the Submariner models, this one looks legitimate to me. If the case style number stamped inside the case back was made available, it could be checked out. I would think this one might be mid to late 1950s.

If you look at the eBay photos, the entire case, case-back, bezel, and bracelet look absolutely brand new, and the case profile (especially from the side) does not look vintage to me. The price is absurdly low.

 

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Cos270

·Jan 6, 2022

Dan S

If you look at the eBay photos, the entire case, case-back, bezel, and bracelet look absolutely brand new, and the case profile (especially from the side) does not look vintage to me. The price is absurdly low.

That's what concerned me as well. I thought maybe it was just highly polished, but it really does look almost new. And the price being so low is also a red flag, as I know the early subs with no crown guards go for lots of $$$. I almost expected to see machining marks where someone had cut off the crown guards from a look-alike case, but the case around the crown looks "clean" (as in, "so clean it looks like a brand new case").

At least the seller is somewhat honest:
It is said that some originals are mixed with the case, bezel, dial, hands, etc.

 

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Canuck

·Jan 6, 2022

Why would someone produce a fake Submariner case without crown guards, since the gullible collector would be unaware of the fact that early ones were without the guards? The case back has the bulbous look of an early “bubble back”. Several unanswered questions, for sure.

 

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CPRwatch

·Jan 6, 2022

I’m no expert, but it looks made up ,It’s a bitsa watch . Bits of this & bits of that .

 

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Dan S

·Jan 6, 2022

Canuck

Why would someone produce a fake Submariner case without crown guards, since the gullible collector would be unaware of the fact that early ones were without the guards? The case back has the bulbous look of an early “bubble back”. Several unanswered questions, for sure.

I'm not going to post links or mention manufacturer names, but if you use google, you will find that there is a substantial industry of replica/cloned parts for various high-end watches, especially Rolex/Tudor. And this includes older no crown-guard cases. People use these parts to build custom replica watches.

There is a least one very active forum where people discuss these topics, and the forum has sub-forums for Rolex/Tudor, a vintage sub-forum. etc.

 

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river rat

·Jan 6, 2022

Fake as a three-dollar bill

 

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Scarecrow Boat

·Jan 6, 2022

The listing says it all...

"28800 Vibration" - Nope.

"The movement is guaranteed to be 100% Swiss made" - This does not mean it is genuine Tudor. It just means whatever movement is inside is Swiss made.

"It is said that some originals are mixed with the case, bezel, dial, hands, etc." - ... seriously.

This listing has a vague enough title to attract some attention, is written vague enough to instill some sense of worth a risk (for a newbie), and is priced attractively (absurdly low) to enforce the feeling that this is a "barn find" from a seller that has no idea what it is. It’s fake. Stay away

Edited: Jan 6, 2022

 

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Cos270

·Jan 6, 2022

I messaged the seller just for kicks to see if he could provide a photo of the case back and movement. Time to break out the popcorn...

 

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Canuck

·Jan 6, 2022

The listing in the link does say a lot. In particular, the 28,000 vph .I missed that when I opened the link.

 

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redpcar

·Jan 6, 2022

Buy the seller.
They also are selling this one 😒

 

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JwRosenthal

·Jan 6, 2022

Dan S

I'm not going to post links or mention manufacturer names, but if you use google, you will find that there is a substantial industry of replica/cloned parts for various high-end watches, especially Rolex/Tudor. And this includes older no crown-guard cases. People use these parts to build custom replica watches.

There is a least one very active forum where people discuss these topics, and the forum has sub-forums for Rolex/Tudor, a vintage sub-forum. etc.

A friend of mine built one before he became enlightened (now used his powers for good not evil). He did one hell of a job too. Used the same vintage eta as was used by Tudor (got it out of a Benrus) used a real Tudor rotor he got on eBay. Real Rolex crown and tube, Dial and hands from one of the sites we will not mention, Fauxtin’d the lume and dial perfectly, and even put the case and bezel in a media tumbler to get that nice even worn look.
Not hard for an advanced hobbiest to make a fairly convincing fake.

 

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redpcar

·Jan 6, 2022

Early ebay days, these sold for $200 to $300. Bunches of them still floating around. This is why I stay away from the "Vintage Tudor Sub". Some of them are just too good.

 

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JwRosenthal

·Jan 6, 2022

redpcar

Early ebay days, these sold for $200 to $300. Bunches of them still floating around. This is why I stay away from the "Vintage Tudor Sub". Some of them are just too good.

And we can get into the Red Ranger’s of the same period (late 90’s/early 00’s)- of which I own one. Real Tudor prince, dial and hands…..ummm…

 

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watchyouwant

·Jan 6, 2022

Not a good Fake. But there are small machinery shops in Vietnam, who make very good cases. Even with square crown guard, the most sought after sub. The worrying part is, that you give them the numbers, they then punch between the lugs and inside the back. Very, very convincing. All you need , is to find an original and excert the numbers..... That is advanced fakery. Best to handle these in person. Pictures will not reveal the status.