Tilted letters on dials - how and why, fixable?

mseamaster · Jul 25, 2024

Sometimes I see some Seiko watches where some letters seem tilted. At first I thought I didn't see right.. but it does exist.

I don't mean printed letters but those 3D ones(Seiko, GS, etc.). I am considering whether the dial has been mishandled or so for this to occur. Otherwise how could this happen?

How can an attached letter get tilted?(it's super weird because it looks like all the letters are one whole thing/piece)

Water damage could maybe explain it but I've seen it on otherwise mint dials with perfectly printed text.

To understand what I mean, picture one of the letters from the silver "Seiko" text tilted, say 10-15°.

Can someone share knowledge on this?(not just for Seiko but in general, it must be a general thing).
Is this type of thing fixable?

JwRosenthal · Jul 25, 2024

What kind of Seiko’s? The term for the 3D lettering is “applied” (applied logo, applied lettering, applied indices). If that were applied with adhesive then yes, heat or moisture could make the shift or sag. Many watches had pins on the back of the applied bits that went into the dial via holes so they shouldn’t move unless they were removed to repaint the dial and then reapplied sloppily.
If we are taking about the divers, there is a whole world of aftermarket dials for these some very good and some not so much. Seiko divers on the second hand market are a mine field so you need to know what to look for to avoid buying a franken/fakenwatch

sheepdoll · Jul 25, 2024

Most likely from a redial

The letters are held in by little pin rivets. These get ground down on the back after swagging. Redialers pop them off then glue them back. There were places what specialized in this.

Redialing was normal part of the service till about 10 or 15 years ago. The origional owners wanted them spiffed up. Same for case polishing. Shiny watches sell.

mseamaster · Jul 25, 2024

JwRosenthal
What kind of Seiko’s? The term for the 3D lettering is “applied” (applied logo, applied lettering, applied indices). If that were applied with adhesive then yes, heat or moisture could make the shift or sag. Many watches had pins on the back of the applied bits that went into the dial via holes so they shouldn’t move unless they were removed to repaint the dial and then reapplied sloppily.
If we are taking about the divers, there is a whole world of aftermarket dials for these some very good and some not so much. Seiko divers on the second hand market are a mine field so you need to know what to look for to avoid buying a franken/fakenwatch

I am talking about a text like the logo, or say KS/GS. It's the same thing basically. It's not about divers.

Dials don't look repainted either. And it's just a single letter that's tilted.

Update: Actually.. I just toke another look. definitely a redial.(though I think I've seen non redials in the past).

sheepdoll
Most likely from a redial

The letters are held in by little pin rivets. These get ground down on the back after swagging. Redialers pop them off then glue them back. There were places what specialized in this.

Redialing was normal part of the service till about 10 or 15 years ago. The origional owners wanted them spiffed up. Same for case polishing. Shiny watches sell.

You were right.. it's a redial.. How I hate redials.

JwRosenthal · Jul 25, 2024

The Seamasters Deville’s from the 60’s had applied OMEGA on the dial, many have been redialed (most commonly done in black) and often you see wonky lettering. Getting those letters off and putting them back on isn’t easy.

mseamaster · Jul 25, 2024

JwRosenthal
The Seamasters Deville’s from the 60’s had applied OMEGA on the dial, many have been redialed (most commonly done in black) and often tour see wonky lettering. Getting those for and putting them back on isn’t easy.

Since we're on this topic.. are there perfect redials? Such that no one would be able to tell.. even up close. I've always wondered, after all I am sure there must be some kind of inhumanly good painter somewhere in the world who could imitate any font and alignment to parts of the millimeter.

Is it possible that many high end vintage watches are perfect redials?

X350 XJR · Jul 25, 2024

mseamaster
are there perfect redials?

They're getting better but thus far there are still some tells, but if they were perfect we wouldn't know would we?

mseamaster · Jul 26, 2024

X350 XJR
They're getting better but thus far there are still some tells, but if they were perfect we wouldn't know would we?

Also.. right now I was thinking in terms of employees of the actual companies using the machines to create genuine dials... like maybe someone somehow got some of the machines after they were decommissioned and then used them to create genuine dials - but are they genuine if they are created after the watch stopped being produced... so many questions 😁

Or if it was a small company which bankrupted(say during the Quartz crisis), it would make sense for creditors to get the machines as payment.

sheepdoll · Jul 26, 2024

As far as I know many of the redialers do use the old machines.

The question is did they get the printing plates?

It is my impression that the plated degrade quickly. I did see some plates listed on eBay once, and they looked pretty degraded.

Here it has been nearly 30 years and I have not done much in the area as I wanted to. What I did learn when using the laser printer to create dials, is there is a lot of attrition. I have not put a lot of effort in this. The initial results were less than satisfactory. Recently though I have been playing about with laser engravers. Thse seem to have replaced pantographs for etching names on trophies or wine glasses at the fairgrounds.

Curiously pantographs have all but disappeared. They were often seen as a forgers tool. Tracing being frowned upon. Or a cheat by those who could not engrave freehand without assistance. There seems to be an idea that artists create things with minimal effort.

Found this link when searching for the spelling.

Probably more often photo engraving is used for the plates. This usually leaves jagged edges. Like the laser test the lines are made of small dots. Silkscreen can also make this effect.

Lithographic plates (which the eBay ones looked like) Are also made by a photo process. A photosensitive organic substance etched off thin aluminum sheets.

The idea is to catch the ink. The plates have to be mirror smooth. otherwise the ink will catch in cracks.

The other way is to etch down all the whitespace. Type is made in molds. So the mold is cut, then a hard Tin/lead/Anitmony is cast into it. If a second mold is made of the set type this became a matrix or stereotype.

Like a well cooked meal. It is not the ingredients what matter. It is the order and time they are assembled. Even the temperature of the ingredients matters.