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Thoughts on Constellation 168.005 cal. 564

  1. scv55

    scv55 Jan 8, 2018

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    They are asking $1,500. I am between a Constellation and a chronometer certified Seamaster, which is asking $500 more...

    The only thing that sticks out to me is the crown, it doesn't appear to be original. Good deal? Good shape?

    Thank you for any help!
     
    Screen Shot 2018-01-08 at 11.08.35 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-01-08 at 11.08.20 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-01-08 at 11.08.08 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-01-08 at 11.07.57 AM.png Screen Shot 2018-01-08 at 11.07.41 AM.png
  2. Noddyman

    Noddyman Jan 8, 2018

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    I can’t see a lot wrong with this other than slight patina to the dial. Going off the movement (564) it looks to be a late 168.005 with the black painted markers rather than onyx inserts of the earlier models. Although the decagonal crown is the norm for this model you can see the crown has the old logo so it could well be original - who knows!
    Not too sure about the rotor as the shape looks slightly different from other 564’s I have seen.
    Overall IMO I think it looks ok for the money.
     
  3. Passover

    Passover Jan 8, 2018

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    Pictures of the case are quite bright and reflecting so it's not easy to see the edges, otherwise I can't see any issues.

    Could be remains of corrosion below (Swiss) "Made", could be dust...

    Is the seller from Japan?
     
    Edited Jan 8, 2018
  4. Vicke

    Vicke Jan 8, 2018

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    Rotor seems too have been rubbing the case-back rather heavily.
    A service of the movement has to take care of that.
     
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  5. Vanallard

    Vanallard Jan 8, 2018

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    Hnansen likes this.
  6. gatorcpa

    gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Jan 8, 2018

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  7. dan7800

    dan7800 Jan 8, 2018

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    For my own education, how can you tell?
     
  8. dan7800

    dan7800 Jan 8, 2018

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    +1. Better, safer deals can be had here if you're a bit patient.
     
  9. Passover

    Passover Jan 9, 2018

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  10. Passover

    Passover Jan 9, 2018

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    Seller had 15 people wanting to buy it (including me) so you would have to very fast.

    If I didn't miss one I think it was the first (ready to wear) 168./ 167. Pie pan for at least some month
     
    Edited Jan 9, 2018
  11. Vicke

    Vicke Jan 9, 2018

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    Look att the edge above the "WATCH Co", and you'll see that the rotor is damaged where it has been touching the caseback.

    rubbingrotor.png
     
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  12. dan7800

    dan7800 Jan 9, 2018

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    Thank you for the lesson. Is this the most typical place to look for wear, or does it occur in other places as well?

    Thanks for the help. It is good to learn these things.
     
  13. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jan 9, 2018

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    You will often see a corresponding wear ring on the inside of the case back. It's possible that the repair may have already been done, and it's just wear marks left behind, but if there are obvious signs that the wear is fresh (like debris in the area) then it needs to be repaired. This video illustrates the play in a worn pinion:



    Note that modern watches also suffer from the same thing - this Cal. 1120 has a wron rotor bearing, and the high spots on the Côtes de Genève are worn off:

    [​IMG]

    Closer look:

    [​IMG]

    In this case the wear is reflected on the inner cover, not the case back:

    [​IMG]

    Cheers, Al
     
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  14. maxbelg

    maxbelg Jan 9, 2018

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    The oscillating axel of the Rolex 1570 and 3135 movements is often described as "archaic" and blamed for the same thing happening. What is your opinion Archer, does the oscillating axel of for instance Rolex lead to this type of problem sooner than a ball-bearing race? And what does the Omega 8400 use?
    067326dc61f3d877f6eba3ebc9cc2045--omega-seamaster--axial.jpg



    I hope I'm not hijacking a thread but thought it might interest others too......
     
  15. Vanallard

    Vanallard Jan 9, 2018

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  16. Archer

    Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jan 9, 2018

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    Most watches that have oscillating weights use one of two systems:

    1 - Plain bearing - axle that goes through a hole, and the inside diameter of the hole and the outside diameter of the axle are where the wear occurs.

    2 - Rolling element bearing - ball bearing typically using steel or ceramic balls. The wear happens internally to the bearing elements, so either the races or balls (or both) wearing.

    The Omega bumper movements, movements based on the Cal. 470 full auto, all the 55X, 56X, 75X, 1000 series, and 1010 series use plain bearings. The modern movements based on the ETA 2892 use ball bearings. In a plain bearing situation, one of the two parts is likely to wear the quickest, so where the axle is the harder material the bushing will wear first, and where a jewel is used it will likely be the axle that wears first. Omega has used both styles - bumpers use axle with jewel and after that it's axle with softer bushings.

    Rolex has traditionally used axle with jewels, so replacing axles in Rolex weights is a common task. These are riveted in place, and after you replace a few (or less depending on how careful the previous watchmaker was - they are punched out) the hole in the weight can become worn or distorted to the point where you need a new weight. The axle can't be secured in the worn hole in the weight anymore. I've received watches where the rotor is flopping around and it's not a worn axle, but one that is loose in the rotor - here's an example:



    For most Omegas, the bushing is a soft brass/bronze material that can be pressed out, a new one pressed in, and then reamed to fit the axle - as shown in this slideshow video:



    I much prefer the Omega system, because the bushing simply presses in and out and I've never come across one where the spot it presses in has become so worn that a new weight was required. Even on the Omegas that used a jewel, the axle for the weight can be replaced and screws in place - not riveted like Rolex - that is the worst solution in my view.

    Bearings are typically quite easily replaced, but it depends on the specific model. Some are burnished into the rotor (Omegas 7750 based watches are like this for some reason), so the whole rotor is replaced, where others there is a clip you remove with a tool, and the old bearing comes out, and a new one is easily installed. The 1120/2500 is like that, and this is the equipment used:

    [​IMG]

    Sometimes the bearing is not in the weight, but in the bridge, like on the 3303 series:

    [​IMG]

    In this case the whole bridge is replaced.

    The 9300 series use ball bearings, but the 8500 series (including the 8400) all use something more like the Rolex system. Instead of a normal corundum jewel though, Omega uses a zirconium oxide jewel that a steel axle rides in. Unfortunately neither the jewel or the axle seem to be available as a spare part from what I can see, so you would have to replace either the whole weight if the axel wears (most likely) or the upper automatic bridge if the jewel wears or cracks from a shock.

    I don't know hoe easily all these wear, so unsure how many of these get replaced at service yet. In Rolex the jewel can crack if the watch gets a big shock...

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers, Al
     
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  17. maxbelg

    maxbelg Jan 9, 2018

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    Wow!!! What a great informative answer. I‘ve spent a lot of time searching unsuccessfully for this info. Now I understand the benefits and disadvantages of various solutions. Thanks again!