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The "Reproduction Community"

  1. trackpad May 28, 2016

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    (WARNING. Liberal use of air quotes ahead)

    Veteran collectors, please forgive my mild shock and surprise, but I've been pretty naive about what's going on in the so-called "reproduction" watch market. Earlier today I stumbled on to a few sites – and one tutorial in particular – that describes in excruciating detail how to effectively age and vintage-ize already various well produced vintage copies.

    Keep in mind these "projects" begin with copies starting at 500 USD and going up from there... these are stainless steel cases with threaded casebacks, automatic movements, etc.

    Reproduction ...er..."enthusiasts" (?) then proceed to dismantle these copies so that each component can be individually sanded, painted, varnished, filed, defiled, scratched, stained, heated, milled, and otherwise artfully degraded before finally reassembly into looking convincingly like a watch that has lived half a century or so on the wrist.

    Advanced tutorials demonstrate techniques for machine milling the cases for spring bar holes, or in order to retrofit an OEM crown tube and crown.

    Reading this guide, and understanding the energy and effort that must have gone into making it, made me feel sick.

    Now...

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    ...to be clear, I knew fairly good copies of most popular Rolex models existed. I of course also knew techniques for aging and adding faux patina existed.

    What surprised me was the brazenness with which knowledge is shared within the reproduction community,...and er...that there is a "reproduction community"...and the openness and professionalism of their guides. And frankly, the results also surprised me – unpleasantly.

    I thought this stuff was more in the shadows, more at the margins and under a rock. After what I saw today, it's difficult to take anything at face value. My next watch will come from a known dealer with references, or from a community member in good standing, period.
     
  2. oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months May 28, 2016

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    If there's money to be made selling knock offs, you can bet there will be people making and peddling them.
     
  3. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. May 28, 2016

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    I don't get the whole counterfit thing. When in China I refuse to go to the fake merchandise malls that everyone else seems to be drawn to. I think the watch snob has some choice words for those who buy and wear this crap.
     
    Northernman and Speedmasterfan88 like this.
  4. Syrte MWR Tech Support Dept May 28, 2016

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    That is quite disturbing indeed, but don't they focus mostly on certain watch brands and watch models?
    Fake vintage Tudor subs from Vietnam, Blancpain "No Rad" fifty fathoms are famous, for example. Fakers are having a field day with Heuers, and it seems clear thai fakers have taken on some well known Omega models.
    But with the level of effort involved, you'd think the watch must have a certain market value and brand recognition for the effort to be most profitable.

    What are the brands and models that are most being faked?
     
  5. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. May 28, 2016

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    Rolex Patek AP Tag Omega ....virtually major brands.
     
  6. danomar May 28, 2016

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    What I find interesting is how many of these folks spend an inordinate amount of time, effort, and sometimes money to make a reproduction more like the original. I suppose it is the same obsession but from a different perspective.
     
  7. Matty01 Port Adelaide's No.1 Fan May 29, 2016

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    There are a massive amount of faked Pams in addition to the brands listed above and a truckload of others besides
     
  8. Speedmasterfan88 May 29, 2016

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    I don't get it why some of them don't join forces and set up a reproduction shop. Openly disclosed to everyone, that they are selling reproductions of some famous Vintage Models. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not encouraging fakes. I See this more from a "Pur Sang" (Google them) perspektive. They Build 1 to 1 repro Bugattis and Alfas, using the same materials, Blue Prints and techniques as were period correct for 1930'ish Bugattis and Alfas. The Cars are still around 300-400k, but far from the astronomic 9-10 digit values of the Originals and Most Importantly, they are usable without the constant fear of braking something. If someone would make a "true to every aspect" 2915-1, and this would include for me that they also completely reproduce the movement, for lets say 8-10 grand. I'd buy that over a modern reinterpretation from Omega with a New movement and datewheel and what has not. Wouldn't it be awesome to have something true to the original, that you could wear everyday without worry? Oh I banged and scratched my Base 1000 bezel on the hood of my car while working the carbs... So what i'll just order a New one from "2915-repro.com".

    But that will remain a fantasy I think. Because it is just to profitable and easy for the "fakers" to make a cheap fake and screw some poor lad over for a quick buck. ... :whipped:
     
  9. Nobel Prize Spell Master! May 29, 2016

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    What I read is " wouldn't it be awesome to have a really really good fake you don't care about but buy at 400g (car) or 10g (watch)?

    No. It wouldn't. If you have the money buy the real thing and enjoy it. A fake is a fake. And I for one would not carelessly drive a 400g car around, genuine or fake.

    And what you describe exists. Watchco in Australia for example.

    To me, I would rather these forgers used their considerable talents and resources and took the bold step to create their own brand on their own merit.

    I do understand the fun and value of rebuilding or restoring a priced car or watch or art, but I rather that be am individual effort for their own gratification than a commercial enterprise.
     
    STANDY likes this.
  10. Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder May 29, 2016

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    Lincoln's axe
     
  11. Nobel Prize Spell Master! May 29, 2016

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    Or the ship of Theseus. But the paradox is different here because these houses and people are not restoring an existing watch but creating a new one from parts. So it's a new watch. Period.

    Now some make the argument of its value as genuine article no matter who is assembling it, and there are a few threads about it. I respect both points of view but stand firmly on the side of these not being genuine. Just me.
     
  12. ahsposo Most fun screen name at ΩF May 29, 2016

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    Ooh! I've got one of those! Signed!
     
  13. LouS Mrs Nataf's Other Son Staff Member May 29, 2016

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    I hope someone in that "community" is smart and honest enough to simply set themselves up manufacturing replacement parts for vintage movements for manufactures that no longer exist, sold as "non-manufacturer replacement." A running watch with replacement parts is better than a dead one.

    If they wanted to take the next step and break the modern manufacturers' embargo on parts to outside watchmakers with high quality non-manufacturer replacements, I wouldn't cry either.