I'm pretty sure I will consider myself to be a 'new boy' on this forum for some time to come. I am, however, trying to soak up as much of the advice and information that you guys make available. So much of what I read concerns very definite points such as serial numbers, references, case designs and bezels but I am finding myself becoming facinated and slightly puzzled by the more vague and personal areas of watch collecting such as patina, dial fade and unpolished cases. All a matter of taste but (I presume) effects how much a buyer is going to offer for a particular watch.

If you google the words "the fine line between patina and damage" an interesting pdf file is available at the top of the search list from horlogeforum.

With a bezel your dot is either over the 90 or next to it. That effects the value but it's not a matter of opinion. Now with patina or the shade of brown your tropical dial has faded to... that would seem to be a matter of personal taste... or is it?

I noticed with interest on the Speedmaster101 price chart that my 105.012 would probably sit somewhere between running and good. But How do I evaluate the patina, the shade of brown on my dial or the extent to which my case has been scratched or polished? I know, when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's my Dad just wore the Speedmaster to work. It was a functional watch.

Pretty sure the watch was never polished??? Is that good?

Being an 'every day watch, the engraving on the case back is worn but still visible??? Is that bad?

Whatever I've inherited with my Speedmaster, and the more I read on this forum I really enjoy this personal and more vague aspect to the world of vintage watches.

 

Faded but still visible

 

From what I have observed recently it seems quite simple, when buying it is commonly known as `dial damage` and when selling it mysteriously becomes `tropical` or `fine patina` .

It´s such a grey area, I personally think that any dial that has changed colour due to water intrusion has damage, it can be attractive damage and then most would probably describe it as patina. I cringe when I see sales posts with ugly looking water damaged dials missing, the minute tracks etc, being described as `tropical`

`Tropical` I would only use to describe a dial which has changed to an attractive colour due to UV light or lacquer issues, if it has changed to an unattractive colour then IMHO it can better be described as `damaged´

In your case the dial certainly looks a different, browner shade than the bezel although your pictures make it very difficult to say anything with much certainty.

 

Strictly speaking patina and damage are two different things. Patina is the process of ageing, often oxidation, that builds up over years or decades and should give a more even, uniform appearance. Damage is generally more instant, resulting from a quick action (water damage).

I'd say a change in appearance associated with patina is more likely to be thought of as attractive than one associated with damage, but it's very subjective.

 

Thankyou. Interesting comments guys. Kind of confirming my suspicions. I love a cynical view on life Cristos. Nice one one man!

I've got a few shots taken in the day light outside with and without flash. The shades of dial colour and patina seem to vary according to the light at the moment the picture is taken.

Be interested in and comments good or bad on how I evaluate the aging of my Dad's watch. The dial colour? The hands? The hour markers? The case condition? The wear on the back of the case? How the hell do you guys value or devalue this stuff?

PS... my hunch is that Cristos has nailed it.

 

Subjective indeed David. Good point. So it really comes down to the viewpoint of the guy buying the watch. You don't get attractive patina by washing the dishes with your 52 year old Speedmaster on your wrist eh???

 

When I talk of Patina, when I use it for watches, is really the Wabi Sabi that the Japanese value that I am thinking of.

This subject has consumed several books, by western and Asian authors, discussing the aesthetics and attraction of an object in a state of decay and beauty at the same time.

Like all art, this is subjective, but there is a swell of opinion that leans a certain way. Often this changes, as with art, and so I believe that it is important not to try to second guess others, but to please myself.

I am happy to own watches that have a pleasing decay, but I have bought watches proposed to me as patinated only to sell them as fast as I can realising I have bought some one else's idea of patina, not mine.

 

Here's a shot of my dear old Dad sitting by the sea, some time in the mid 70's. He'd be 86 now if he had'nt taken up jogging at 72! keeled over and went out like a light! (200 step ups??? Jeez Dad!!! What were you thinking?)

Anyway that's the same watch as in the pictures on this thread. He was careful with it but it was never wrapped in cotton wool. He just used it everyday and that's how it got to look like it does in these pictures.

 

Thankyou Spacefruit. I like that idea!

 

I think most collectors will agree that scratches are preferred to over or badly polished. It is incredibly difficult to refinish a case that has been polished down, laser welding can add metal but trying to get the lines correct after this is not often accomplished, especially with cases that have twisted lugs. Results may be better on an old rolex than on a speedy. This is why you will so frequently see "clean and service the movement but do not polish the case.
Your watch dial will look heaps better with a new crystal, or you can try to polish the crystal you do have (this is permitted!) using polywatch or even a small amount of toothpaste.

 

Thankyou Shaun hk. I'm hoping the guys at ST'S in Essex, UK are going to enhance the good bits and clean off the bad bits. I have every confidence in the advice from the experts on this forum. Thankyou!

 

Your watch is a jem.
Also you have what many would love in a watch like this, sentimental attachment.


Wear / Well Worn, would be my description

 

That's a nice concise summary... cheers Standby!

 

I wish I had a connection like this to my dad. I would love every scratch and nick on that watch.

 

Thanks Corn. He was a funny guy, and would have loved the idea that he took himself out doing 200 step ups trying to get fit at 72!

During the 80's and 90's he worked doing deliveries for Cristies auction house in London. Sometime in the 80's or 90's some clothes and underwear worn by Madonna came up for sale.
Here's a picture of Dad with one of Madonna's bra on his head....... and, of course, his Speedy on his wrist!

 

Simple rule:

The rarer and more sought after the watch, the more damage is accepted as "patina". Like I just told Castro in his thread Does it scream redial there's a LOT more grey area for 50's Submariners and Fifty Fathoms than there is for 60's Cosmics and DeVilles.

 

Yep... that rule makes sense... thankyou!

 

Just had a read of your comments to Castor. The bit about this forum being... 'PURISTS' made me smile.

 

Great watch and a wonderful link to your father. I think you'll be delighted by the way the bezel in particular cleans up.

Simon at STS will do exactly what you want him to during the service. Tell him: "Just do what William (that's Spacefruit) would want". Works every time for my watches.

Post some "after" pictures when you collect it in 7 or 8 weeks' time. Simon takes great pictures too and email them to you.

 

'Purist' is the nice way to say we're anal OCD nitpicking bastards.