The Economic Secret Hidden in a Tiny, Discontinued Pasta

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Your phrasing ("drove business in China") is confusing to me. Are you suggesting that the exodus of manufacturing from the U.S. to China, and other Asian countries, was not due primarily to the low wages, which in turn radically raised profits for corporations?

It wasn't labor per se, it was overall product cost. ALL substantially capitalized foreign companies doing business in China are controlled by the CCP. It was one of Xi's goals from many years ago, and is succeeding. Party company executives, party members on the boards, etc, Anyway, the total cost is what matters. If the party agrees with your business plan(and their payments), things get cheaper. If they don't, you either change it, or things get expensive suddenly. Its becoming a significant barrier to profits, as the party wants more of it for themselves. So if its getting too expensive, you move out and go someplace else. So some go to vietnam(which is getting more and more corrupt in the same fashion) or elsewhere to try to beat the lead in costs. It's also why US companies have to do so much damage control when the secrecy fails. The party says they can get you workers cheap, almost free, or help you build a new facility(just have to raze a few villages). They'll sell it to you with flowers. Great, you say...and then you find out its a bunch of political prisoners, or real prisoners, or racially oppressed people. Or just poor farmers conscripted from the countryside. The vast majority of manufacturing workers are dirt poor conscripts. Personal example, I had to change suppliers quickly as one time I traveled to my primary supplier, and my interpreter informed me when I asked why an employee was being escorted outside, she said it was for discipline. He had damaged some parts. I asked what they they were doing with him, she said he was being disciplined. I asked how. She said 'with a cane'. I said what?, you mean like a stick? She said yes, very matter of factly. It is an entirely different world than you can imagine.
Edited:
 
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It is much more important for the US to revitalize it's machining capabilities, it's tool and die industry, and to breathe new life into the ability to produce electronic components domestically. From personal experience, I can state that we do have a vital electronic manufacturing business sector and that it is about to grow.

I have not had time to read the OP article. But this jumped out at me. Because it is not going to happen.

The problem is that tool and die makers are treated as replaceable idiots. Parents tell their children to become Doctor's Lawyers, stockbrokers. If you fail, you dig ditches or become and 'employee that makes widgets for the boss.

Tool and die makers are the lowest form of employment on the planet. Why? because this is unskilled labor anyone can do. And why is it Unskilled? Because it is what women did during the war. When they ran the automated lathes. After the war in the 1940s it was outsourced to other countries.

The processes used (and in industrial level) are bad for the environment. (it is impossible to make a legal plating shop or foundry.) and you can not make tools and dies without this. Even simple things like pure grain alcohol is illegal. Yes the toolmakers drink it. Given the emotional state of how they are treated I do not blame them. Most of the ones I have met are the roughest sort. Because they could not make it in the 'professional world.' So they went to trade school. They do have one ability. Such are good at the Victorian route mathematics I can not do. But they do not do fractions or decimal math. They can however do base 12 mathematics in their head. Which is why the US still designed in thousandth of an inch. In base 12 (there are 12 inches to a foot) quarter and thirds are both integers. (same is true for Lignes)

But that is not the point. The point is how people are treated. That some are considered smarter and more skilled than others. And while tool making is the most skilled of all. It is the least respected. That the employees must be watched. Lest they steal from the company. An the worse thing they can steal from the company is time.

The unions do their best to protect the workers, but there is corruption at all levels. The less skilled tend to find their way into management.

Now we have the whole environmental thing. Which is being used to restrict this sort of work even further. As long as there is blame for poor educational results with heavy (or any metal exposure.) these jobs will never return. The other issue is too much of a good thing is well too much. Especially when there is not enough to go round.

Business is no longer about providing services. It is about gaming the system. About the buying and selling of commodidites (always has been.) One of these commodities is the 'Worker.' And as long as we treat workers as drunken or drug addled idiots we are stuck in this loop. Sometimes I think the worst thing one can say to another is "Get off your lazy a** and ..." And when you have entire societies saying this about one another. Well that is for others to think about.

I was told when young that 'You could do something yourself, or you could pay someone else to do it.) Seems like the latter part is the one that generates the greater reward. Especially when you do not pay much for others to do it for you. Cheap labor and disregard for the environment. may be the rule of things.

I guess that is why I like to encourage an interest in the DIY skills like watchmaking. Granted not everyone has the temperament to do that. Or even the desire. Then there are the typecasts where some people naturally like fixing radios. Others are encouraged to design clothing, or prepare meals. Or simply provide comfort. One is not better than the other.

But it does make it frustrating when access to things tools, materials, chemicals are restricted. I love Mars bars. But Mars bars are not sold in the US. The company that bears that name prefers to sell M&Ms and Snicker bars, which can be produced cheaper. Cadbury will not let the better candy be sold here and cracked down hard on the places that used to bring in the British foods. And some of the worse trouble one can get into is smuggling candy. (especially an egg candy from the UK what contains a toy.) And why. Because Hershey wants it that way. Next time you look at the candy aisle notice just how much there is not. Old people like my dad remember when three musketeers came in chocolate strawberry and vanilla.

Ironically I can sometimes get mexican candy at the quick stop, A lot of the old food processing machines used leaded brass to make the machining easier. Which could be a subject unto itself. Thing is a lot of people did die from lead poisoning. But they still die. Just from something else. This is the point where one would blame education. But that is really more of a lack of access to information. Which is even farther away from the subject at hand. It really may come down to who controls what information. But desires have a lot to do with it as well. And there are many who desire wealth and power.

Some would say this is social darwinisim at work. Then again no one really ever read Wallace, or even Darwin for that matter. Fit does not mean strength. (it means adaptability.)

We can not always have what we want (or even what is best for us.)

(Ironically I am good at wasting time on writing something like this. Yet I have no desire to work through the tutorial to install a word press plug in for my comic strip blog. But that blog is 'insurance for the future.' in case anything happens to my main blog, which I also never update either as I have always preferred the old Usenet groups, which were purely academic. )
 
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It wasn't labor per se, it was overall product cost. ALL substantially capitalized foreign companies doing business in China are controlled by the CCP. It was one of Xi's goals from many years ago, and is succeeding. Party company executives, party members on the boards, etc, Anyway, the total cost is what matters. If the party agrees with your business plan(and their payments), things get cheaper. If they don't, you either change it, or things get expensive suddenly. Its becoming a significant barrier to profits, as the party wants more of it for themselves. So if its getting too expensive, you move out and go someplace else. So some go to vietnam(which is getting more and more corrupt in the same fashion) or elsewhere to try to beat the lead in costs. It's also why US companies have to do so much damage control when the secrecy fails. The party says they can get you workers cheap, almost free, or help you build a new facility(just have to raze a few villages). They'll sell it to you with flowers. Great, you say...and then you find out its a bunch of political prisoners, or real prisoners, or racially oppressed people. Or just poor farmers conscripted from the countryside. The vast majority of manufacturing workers are dirt poor conscripts. Personal example, I had to change suppliers quickly as one time I traveled to my primary supplier, and my interpreter informed me when I asked why an employee was being escorted outside, she said it was for discipline. He had damaged some parts. I asked what they they were doing with him, she said he was being disciplined. I asked how. She said 'with a cane'. I said what?, you mean like a stick? She said yes, very matter of factly. It is an entirely different world than you can imagine.

Sadly I personally saw this happen in a factory in Kentucky in 2001. (and I suspect with Union approval.) Was told it was a 'States rights issue like the pot farms in California' (edit ' ..the federal government should/does not get involved in such things') I was also told they' were happy this way as that was how god made them.' And it was in the Bible. The workers were also forbid newspaper, radio and television. as it created disruption in the workplace. And this is what is making your made in the USA uniforms. Seems to be a pretty open secret.

The more things change the more they stay the same. Really was like stepping 60 years back in time.

Something is coming. Then again it always is. Meanwhile we have watches to collect and the other fine things in life to enjoy while we can.
 
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[But it does make it frustrating when access to things tools, materials, chemicals are restricted. I love Mars bars. But Mars bars are not sold in the US. The company that bears that name prefers to sell M&Ms and Snicker bars, which can be produced cheaper. ]
@sheepdoll …..Have a Milky Way.
 
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Have to ask...

how the hell is a Mars Bar more expensive to produce than a Snickers?

By the way, I eat neither these days but back in the days when I did - Mars beat the shit out of a Snickers (even though my wife would fight me in a Death Match over that statement).
 
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SC1 SC1
Have to ask...

how the hell is a Mars Bar more expensive to produce than a Snickers?

By the way, I eat neither these days but back in the days when I did - Mars beat the shit out of a Snickers (even though my wife would fight me in a Death Match over that statement).
5th Avenue curb-stomped a Butterfingers- can’t find those anymore either…all about the marketing on that one.
 
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5th Avenue curb-stomped a Butterfingers- can’t find those anymore either…all about the marketing on that one.

Totally agree... Butterfingers are for quitters/5th Ave ~ food of Closers.

And don't even get me started on Reese's peanut butter cups... I live in the desert, if I wanted Reese's PBC's I'd just pour chocolate on sand and scoop that foul shit into my piehole.
 
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[But it does make it frustrating when access to things tools, materials, chemicals are restricted. I love Mars bars. But Mars bars are not sold in the US. The company that bears that name prefers to sell M&Ms and Snicker bars, which can be produced cheaper. ]
@sheepdoll …..Have a Milky Way.
Not the same thing, although I do like the midnight version.

The weird thing is no on has noticed Mars bars have disappeared from the US of A.

I always get their names mixed up. At one time I even wondered if they were Swiss so I had to look it up.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Clarence_Mars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forrest_Mars_Sr.
 
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This reminds me of the watch industry. One reason they cannot manufacture the good, stready old calibers again, even for potential reeditions, is because they discarded all of the machinee.


The weird thing is no on has noticed Mars bars have disappeared from the US of A.
r.
Come to think of it, the same appliea in France.
 
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5th Avenue curb-stomped a Butterfingers- can’t find those anymore either…all about the marketing on that one.
Once we had a casino night at apple. I won a case of 5th avenue playing roullet. (you can break the bank if the odds are even and the game fair. most houses will not take the bet.)
 
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Tool and die makers are the lowest form of employment on the planet. Why? because this is unskilled labor anyone can do.

Nothing could be further from the truth. A journeyman tool and die maker is a highly skilled tradesperson. It requires education and hundreds of hours in an apprenticeship to become one...
 
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I'd say be careful what you wish for. The US does not need more environmental pollution caused by factories.

From an environmental perspective, it is far better to manufacture in the US or Europe than in Asia. The industrial pollution in Asia is horrendous.
 
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From an environmental perspective, it is far better to manufacture in the US or Europe than in Asia. The industrial pollution in Asia is horrendous.

Correct, and avoiding the associated costs is/was another big driver of offshoring to countries with lax regulations.
 
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Nothing could be further from the truth. A journeyman tool and die maker is a highly skilled tradesperson. It requires education and hundreds of hours in an apprenticeship to become one...

Agreed... never before or since in my lifetime have I encountered guys who mostly looked like scrappers & longshoremen yet could do high level mind math that would impress even my CPA dad -and- take any mechanical predicament and come up with fast, amazing & beautiful solutions.
All the tool & die folks I was raised around were pretty goddamn skilled and brilliant folks.
 
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From an environmental perspective, it is far better to manufacture in the US or Europe than in Asia. The industrial pollution in Asia is horrendous.

Correct, and avoiding the associated costs is/was another big driver of offshoring to countries with lax regulations.

If people stopped buying ten times the crap they need that would help. New rule: one watch per person. The world doesn't need more factories, it needs less collectors, hoarders and fools who buy a new phone every year.
Edited:
 
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Nothing could be further from the truth. A journeyman tool and die maker is a highly skilled tradesperson. It requires education and hundreds of hours in an apprenticeship to become one...

I am of course playing the advocate here. My sample size is small. And perhaps there are social gender things involved. I do not have the math ability to do the simple sums such folk do in their head, quickly and under pressure.

What I am not seeing (at least locally in my own bubble.) Are younger folk taking up the slack. There are too many who want that quick fix. To simply purchase an education with inherited money.

I have been in tech all my life. Seen the dreams happen, and the bubble burst numbers of times. I do not think this era is that much different. I tended to find older friends, and some who were tool and die makers. Many of whom helped me with my projects. (and sometimes hit upon me in what they considered a friendly way.) One was/is an alcoholic. Another would be 99 this year. They were the ones that gave me these feelings from their concern as to how such skilled labor is treated.

For all the words I type it is hard to put abstract feeling into practice. I think what I am trying to say is that such people are considered replaceable. Like a tree, which can take years to grow before being harvested. That such people are treated as just another tree in the forest.
 
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Instagram is full of (add your country here) made clothing that is to support your (add your country here)….problem is 95% of the material is made in China and Bangladesh.
Made in (add your country here) nearly any product would still be full of parts made in China.

Read an article a while back that linked nearly every Stockmarket share bought has led to the problem we have now.

Where I live is seeing an explosion of cotton being grown due to a wet season that gives free water for half the year. Learning there is not a cotton gin for thousands of kms and not a manufacturer of cotton in the country

google cotton manufacturer in Austria

“As an Australian based and owned company who is also a registered company in China, we cut out the middle-man and get you the best prices that others simply can’t.”
 
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This thread is growing legs! 😉

A couple of observations in no particular order . . .

Mars Bars are available from Amazon, 12 bars for $16.95!

https://www.amazon.com/Mars-Chocolate-Bars-12-Count/dp/B000L1GRQO

I don't remember the Mars Bar but I do remember the Sky Bar. 😀

Sky_Bar_2019_wrapped.jpg

A little tidbit about the Mars company:

"Mars was ranked as the fourth-largest privately held company in the United States by Forbes. [Edit: and now may be the third largest.] Headquartered in McLean, Virginia, the company is entirely owned by the Mars family."

Apparently, someone in the family must have been interested in marine electronics and sailing. Years ago they came out with an innovative marine radar call the Mars Vigil that had a hand-held keyboard, something not heard of at the time and probably not since - and easy to lose! The unit was developed especially for under 50-foot sailboats as the antenna was small and the power consumption light. It was made in the UK.

In the end, they could not compete with the likes of JRC, Raytheon, which partnered with JRC, and Furuno, among others.

Thinking about Sheepdoll's posts . . .

My small company designs specialized communications electronic systems including those used for recording systems that may be used in public safety command vehicles and may record tactical radio communications. This is not an advertisement!

We develop the specifications and do some of the hardware design, as well as assembly and testing after others build various components. A US company comes up with the printed wiring board layouts and another US company makes prototype boards. The boards are manufactured in Florida and a CNC operation prepares the boards for component insertion. Another company uses CNC equipment to insert the components and flow-solder or wave-solder the boards. Meanwhile we have a local machine shop fabricate prototype chassis and housing systems. Eventually they will make the final housings, but they'll farm out anodizing and screen printing for us. There may be 25 suppliers on a project. We'll get everything under our roof and put the stuff together, test it and get it ready for deployment. We are a boutique operation so we tend to build specialized things in small quantities that no one else wants to build. When large quantities are needed, the boards may be manufactured and stuffed overseas. We can do everything in the US when the item is specialized and not destined for mass production.

Here is an example of what we cannot do economically:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1851858092...5hLv6ynjyeF2JnV8TyZ4X5ME8=|tkp:Bk9SR4CN0ca9YQ

These are "cookie-cutter" items that would cost probably $30 to produce in small numbers in the US.

But when it comes to the defense industry, we in the US still do quite a lot domestically.

Cheers,

Joe
 
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As time goes by more and more skills are lost in western societies either to be replaced by Asian concerns or even more tragically just lost.
Many items manufactured say in the 1920's or 30's and a lot later can no longer be made at all as the necessary tech or trade secrets have been forgotten.
 
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For all the words I type it is hard to put abstract feeling into practice. I think what I am trying to say is that such people are considered replaceable.

It’s no secret that some companies treat their employees as an expense rather than as an asset. My only point was that characterizing a skilled trade as “unskilled labour that anyone can do” is just not correct.