Strange Zenith S.58 today at Portobello (for short money)

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Not to take any side here but why would Zenith create a Sub for pilots? Pilot watches have always been desirable on their own right and it would make more sense.

Big crown for time adjustment with gloves, anti- magnetic quality, tachymeter... why a sub?

Yes, I thought exactly the same thing. Perhaps it was for when the Sikorskys were shot down over water. 🙄
 
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Ah, I see the Omega forum has changed little since my last visit years ago after Bill Sohne and I had a little adventure in New Jersey..... Just to introduce myself properly, I am also Hurley on MWR where I was one of the earliest forum members many many years ago. I am also a longtime collector of military watches and have written and lectured on the subject. Desperation is hardly my motivation I can assure you. You are welcome to check out my 15 year history of posts on MWR to gauge my level of interest, enthusiasm and experience.

Turning to the bezel mystery, as someone who has handled tens of thousands of vintage watches, particularly early dive watches, there is no question in my mind that this is factory work. The perfect fit and machining as well as the presence of radium attest to that. The only question is why? The notion that it was simply a replacement for a cracked bezel seems wrong due to the extraordinary amount of work involved. Zenith could have supplied a new part or a new watch could have been sourced at vastly lower trouble and expense. Based on what I know about the things major watch companies did during this period to modify existing watches to submit them for testing and possible government procurement, this seems like a possibility. An internal test sample for an improved design is a another possibility (I have an odd little Martin guitar that falls into that category). As I said before, the stock bezel on S.58 was not usable for actual diving.

Finally, what is my educated guess about the S.58 logo and name? Based on Zenith's long and strong connection to aviation instruments and the specific connection to Sikorsky, as well the use of the Sikorsky logo, my guess is that the watch was meant to evoke the helicopter. Whether Zenith sought and failed to do a deal with Sikorsky, we don't know. (Much more likely, they just wanted to hint at their history in a subtle way.) The facially implausible "let's really celebrate 1958 theory," which wouldn't sell a single watch to anyone, just doesn't cut it. I think the marketing team at Zenith, knowing how important military sales were sat that time, gave the watch that name thinking it would help sales in perhaps speculative ways. At the very least, it would stoke sales at PXs, huge snd important outlets for watch sales in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. No S.58 crew member would fail to recognize that logo! Indeed, as we know from the Rolex explorer and Commando experience, if you push the right style buttons, you can sell a lot of watches to servicemen -- Jenny and Glycine proved that!

Anyway, as I've repeatedly said, only hypothesis at this point. But, again, that's how you learn things. I remember vividly what people said when I propounded my theory about sterile TRs. Time and excellent research has shown who was right about that.

Tony, I strongly encourage you to keep your mind open about the history and provenance of watches. You will learn a lot and maybe even make some contributions. Not every previously unseen watch is a fake and not every unsubstantiated story is a myth.

Fraternally yours, Hurley


QUOTE="Tony C., post: 743066, member: 1598"]The desperation is palpable. Why don't you spare everyone your hopeful hypotheses, and as of yet completely unsupported anecdotes, and come back when you actually have some solid, supporting evidence.

You can begin by providing evidence that the model was introduced in 1956, as I suspect you and/or your source are arriving at the conclusion by movement serial numbers, and any modestly sophisticated collector could explain the potential problem with that.

Oh, and by the way, as you are apparently ignorant of the fact that 1958 was a rather important year for watch manufacturers, and a number of them created special models in honor of it. So, it may well be that Zenith wanted to introduce a notable new model, highly resistant to various elements, as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Geophysical_Year

igylogo.jpg

TechGeo2.jpg

JLCGeo58d.jpg

PolGeo2.jpg

GruenGeo2.jpg

UNGeo2.jpg [/QUOTE]
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The Sikorsky s58/H34 was very commonly equipped as a SAR aircraft for military use. A brief exploration of the Sikorsky S58 wiki will provide you with those answers. The number of Tudor and rolex subs sold to foreign militaries for non-diving use also attests to their general desirability for active use. Best, Hurley
 
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I personally like Hurleys angle and research, specially the double 58 which does seem something of an oddity if it was a year celebration. Not sure I have seen any other brand mark the year this way.

Stull though, why a sub?, why not a pilots watch?
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Ah, I see the Omega forum has changed little since my last visit years ago after Bill Sohne and I had a little adventure in New Jersey..... Just to introduce myself properly, I am also Hurley on MWR where I was one of the earliest forum members many many years ago. I am one of the world's foremost collectors of military watches and have written and lectured extensively on the subject. Desperation is hardly my motivation as Zaf or James Dowling or Paul Duggan or Ed Faber or Andrew Shear or Eric Ku will tell you. This is just an interesting piece about which, I think, the full story is not known.

Nice to know that you are "one of the world's foremost collectors of military watches". The problem is that I have been responding to, and casting serious doubt on your dubious hypotheses, while providing plenty of supporting evidence, while you have been throwing out nothing but scraps of anecdotal evidence. So your pedigree is largely irrelevant.

Now, as a self-proclaimed expert on a certain class of vintage watches, how is possible that you are not aware of the fact that it was common for movements to be cased and delivered well after their date of production? And if you are aware of this fact, then where is the evidence that the S.58 was first produced in 1956?

To take things in order. First, the notion that Zenith thought it might be a clever idea to tout this watch as an S58, with that legend boldly on the dial and caseback, as a general marketing ploy is silly. Nobody cared about 1958 and the average consumer would never have made any connection to the geophysical year which was largely a non-event. Moreover, Zenith never made this connection itself in any advertising. Forget about the fact that the watch came out in 1956 per Manfred R. And then there is the fact that the very odd font used for the S was never used before or since by Zenith.

Right, "nobody cared" about the Geophysical year, yet I have already provided clear evidence of several major manufactures that chose to market new models for precisely that reason. And stop citing Manfred as if his word is Gospel. He also claims that the entire first series (2500) was bought by Cairelli for the Italian Navy. Really? They bought up the entire first series, yet not a single one survives with either military marking or references to Cairelli?

Either you have evidence to back up your assertions, or you do not. And "Manfred says" is not, at least in the context of this model, an example of anything close to solid evidence.

As to the font used on the S, do I really need to produce examples of models made by other, various manufacturers that included anomalous fonts? This was not such a rare approach to distinguishing model lines. And to leap from both Zenith and Sikorsky having used a stylized S on the two products to your claim that they are the same is also unsupportable.

Set against that are the facts that Zenith has a long and proud history of supplying aviation instruments, they apparently supplied instruments to Sikorsky in the 1940s (and perhaps later), the S in S58 is unmistakably the Sikorsky flying S, the S58 was Sikorsky's most important product when the watch was made and AMI S58 pilots were wearing Zenith chronographs during the time the S58 was being produced by Zenith.

Yes, the pilots probably were wearing chronographs, which again underscores the point that it would be absurd to provide them with simple dive watches.

We also know that watch companies were desperate to buoy up military watch sales in the 1950s. Militaries had been their number one customers during the war years, and that was declining a bit.

What on earth are you talking about? Do you seriously believe that the military was anything close to being the main customers for most watch companies in the '50s? Do you have any idea how many watches IWC, JLC, Omega and Zenith manufactured during that period? Are you conflating the '40s with the '50s?

Many know the lengths to which Allen Tornek went to get his USN contract for the TR900. What you may not know is how hard Tudor/Rolex, Bulova and Enicar worked to get the same contract -- including redesigning the Sea Pearl bezel to meet the requirements of the milspec. Blancpain spent most of the 50s, 60s and 70s trying to get police and military contracts. I have more than 20 large case BPs, including TR900s, most of which were made to meet the specs of military contracts. With all due respect, you show real ignorance of the watch industry during the 50s and 60s when you discount the possibility of the S58 having a potential military angle.

Blancpain?! 🤦

You're using a relatively tiny manufacturer to buttress your claim that military orders were of great importance to watch manufacturers in the '50s? How about IWC, Omega, JLC and Zenith? Do you imagine that they produced more than a small fraction of military watches relative to civilian models?

In my view, the evidence I have put forward in support I my hypothesis (and there is much much more research to be done and I'll enlist Billy Schorr to help me with that) is far more compelling than your "hey, it's just 1958, stupid" theory.

Not only have you failed to produce a single shred of solid evidence, but I have backed up my views with plenty. And when you begin to resort to ad hominem attacks, it reflects very poorly on you, and readers will understand that you most likely have no serious foundation for your fanciful claims.

We will see. But we sure don't advance our state of knowledge by shouting down new ideas, especially when there is as much smoke as we have here.

I have consistently provided well-supported views and facts, and have shouted nothing down.

Finally, what is my educated guess about the S58 logo and name? Based on Zenith's long and strong connection to aviation instruments and the specific connection to Sikorsky, as well the use of the Sikorsky logo, my guess is that the watch was meant to evoke the helicopter.

Sure, what better marketing move than to "evoke a helicopter" with a dive watch?

Tony, I strongly encourage you to keep your mind open about the history and provenance of watches. You will learn a lot and maybe even make some contributions. Not every previously unseen watch is a fake and not every unsubstantiated story is a myth.

I always do keep an open mind, but your hypothesis make no sense, runs completely counter to what Zenith itself claims, and also how the watch was marketed. If you want to claim that the particular example that you showed is a prototype, feel free to make your case. But on the Sikorky/military connection, the existing evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the official, stated Zenith position, and not your claims.
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Bit more on the significance of 1958 in the first paragraph

http://wornandwound.com/affordable-vintage-croton-nivada-grenchen-antarctic/

Yes, thanks. Here's an excerpt, which further puts Hurley's "no one cared" nonsense into perspective. Bear in mind, however, that I am not married to the hypothesis that Zenith necessarily timed the introduction of the model to coincide with the IGY; it could have been sheer coincidence. My main point is that there is no remotely compelling evidence that it was either connected to Sikorsky helicopters, nor that it was a "military watch".

In 1957/58, a group of about forty countries, including the US, Soviet Union, and most of Europe came together to declare the International Geophysical Year (IGY). It was a scientific collaborative effort to explore the Earth’s poles, climb the tallest mountains and advance the exploration of space. This was a time of burgeoning scientific progress, and the watch industry was right there too.

Wristwatches were becoming more capable of highly accurate timekeeping, as well as being exposed to extremes of temperature and water depth. This made the IGY a perfect opportunity for watch manufactures to tie in their products with these scientific endeavors. Earlier in the decade, some of the big Swiss companies had already had their watches tied to famous explorations. Rolex sent their Explorer with Hillary and Norgay on their ascent of Everest in 1953, Vulcain accompanied the assault on K2 in 1954, and Enicar was there for the climbing of Lhotse in 1956. Rolex had great success tying their Explorer to the Everest expedition, and they and other watch manufactures wanted to take advantage by advertising their exploits and attaching themselves to the popularity of the IGY. Two manufactures in particular took advantage of the IGY: Jaeger-LeCoultre (JLC) and Nivada. In 1958, JLC sent their now famous Geophysic Chronometer with the USS Nautilus nuclear submarine on its journey under the North Pole, while Nivada sent a watch to the Antarctic in 1957.
 
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🍿🍿🍿 no, seriously....🍿🍿🍿


And to me, the single most sensical question that is not being addressed is the idea from a practical, ,military, marketing and common sense perspective that a dive watch would be the chosen "signature" watch for a Helicopter company and/or pilots. Wether marketed to the public or for contracting for the military it just does not make sense...it's like marketing a swimming suit for Space Exploration...."say...is that a rocket or are you just very happy to see me?"
 
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When did Zenith trademark the "pilot" moniker for use on wristwatches?
 
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When did Zenith trademark the "pilot" moniker for use on wristwatches?

oops! Sorry - I misread your question initially. I believe that they appeared in the mid-'40s, though perhaps even earlier.
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oops! Sorry - I misread your question initially. I believe that they appeared in the mid-'40s, though perhaps even earlier.

Thanks 👍
 
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Thanks 👍

Hi. Tony et al. I've been trying to do this by phone as I make my way back from London and the auction yesterday. I'll be at my computer in a few hours and I'll respond then. As I have said countless times, this is merely a topic I'd like to research. It was totally subsidiary to my original point -- i.e. had anyone ever seen a different insert on the S58. As for the origin of the name, who really cares. But considering Zenith likes to tout its aviation history, apparently made instruments for Sikorsky, sold watches issued to S58 pilots in the same time frame and used Sikorsky's logo on the watch, a hypothesis seemed appropriate. I will see how far I can go with it. To say it was merely a celebration of the year 1958 seems incredibly improbable. How would that help to sell watches? As for how little the military market mattered, the Bund contract that Heuer bought out from Leonidas saved that company from oblivion. Anyway, more when I'm at my desk. Best, Hurley.
 
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Oh, and as for why a dive watch with a helicopter on it, I could say the S58 was often configured for SAR use or remind you of all the pilots who wore subs.

But the better answer is that the S58 did not start life as a dive watch. The bezel came later.

Best, Hurley.
 
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As for the origin of the name, who really cares. But considering Zenith likes to tout its aviation history, apparently made instruments for Sikorsky, sold watches issued to S58 pilots in the same time frame and used Sikorsky's logo on the watch, a hypothesis seemed appropriate.

...But it is not the same, is it?


Sikorsky logo:

sikorsky-wing-s-logo-big.jpg


Zenith S:

Zenith_s58_case.jpg

And that is really what is bothering me. It makes no sense at all.

If they were going to make a watch that carried the same name as a type of helikopter (which also is rather... odd, IMO) why not get the logo right? Furthermore, why not get the name right? It isn't S.58, it's S-58.

Look at the contemporary UG Polerouter who successfully used the SAS typeset and tied in the watch with that very company in marketing. If they had the clout to do this (albeit with a company and an extraordinary service they provided at that time), why couldn't Zenith do so? And if the explanation is that Zenith approached Sikorsky and they were turned down, why not choose a completely different name? Let's face it - "S.58" is not exactly a name that sparks the imagination of the public.
 
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Hi. Tony et al. I've been trying to do this by phone as I make my way back from London and the auction yesterday. I'll be at my computer in a few hours and I'll respond then. As I have said countless times, this is merely a topic I'd like to research. It was totally subsidiary to my original point -- i.e. had anyone ever seen a different insert on the S58. As for the origin of the name, who really cares. But considering Zenith likes to tout its aviation history, apparently made instruments for Sikorsky, sold watches issued to S58 pilots in the same time frame and used Sikorsky's logo on the watch, a hypothesis seemed appropriate. I will see how far I can go with it. To say it was merely a celebration of the year 1958 seems incredibly improbable. How would that help to sell watches? As for how little the military market mattered, the Bund contract that Heuer bought out from Leonidas saved that company from oblivion. Anyway, more when I'm at my desk. Best, Hurley.

Everyone, including I, welcomes research into the history of vintage watches, including the S.58. And I take your point that the bezel was initially your focus. However, the results of your research relating to a possible military connection, and/or a connection to Sikorsky are, to this point, flimsy at best. If you come up with something more substantial, we will all be interested in reading it.

And, for the second time, Zenith did not use Sikorsky's logo on the dial. They used a stylized S that was somewhat similar. This why I suggested earlier that your claims of expertise and long experience as a military watch collector are subordinate to the quality of your argument.

Sikor2.jpg

Finally, for the moment, in order for readers to believe your hypothesis, you are asking them to believe that:

- Zenith designed a dive watch, touted as being highly waterproof, and thought that it would be a good marketing idea to connect with an aircraft.

- Zenith asked Sikorsky for permission to use "S.58", were denied, yet chose to use it anyway, presumably at the risk of a lawsuit, even though they never used the connection in any related marketing campaign.

- Marc Roethlisberger, a well-known, long-standing and respected employee of Zenith, is either ignorant of the true history of the model and decided to make up a story that sounded plausible, or intentionally lied to me in response to my previously noted email query.
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Oh, and as for why a dive watch with a helicopter on it, I could say the S58 was often configured for SAR use or remind you of all the pilots who wore subs.
Isn't this how rumors on the interest get started? 😀😉

At least we are all trying to separate fact from fiction.
gatorcpa
 
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Oh, and as for why a dive watch with a helicopter on it, I could say the S58 was often configured for SAR use or remind you of all the pilots who wore subs.
Sure, and there are Divers that where pilot watches...and Vegetarian Bullfighters. But that has nothing to do with it.

The point is, it is a strange choice. It is not like Zenith lacks great chronometer movements....of all things. It just doesn't make sense.

And I am following this discussion with great interest and having a good time. I am following your, as well as Tony's arguments and I must say I'm playing tennis here....this makes sense...that makes sense.....that's true.....that too....it could be...oh wait it could not.

I am not satisfied with 58 referring to the year. Not because it was not an important year, or relevant, or watchmakers didn't align themselves to it. Tony has proven that one. It is because the S.58 doesn't make sense to me as a year homage. If it is, then it's a little gimmicky and makes me loose interest quite frankly. But I am not buying the helicopter theme here because, if they asked Sikorski, and Sikorski said no, and then they did it.....it would be a clear fail. Like if Omega asked NASA if they can put it there and NASA said n and they, instead, said.....nasa.

So there is definitely something there to research. But don't let desire guide you...keep it simple.

The bezel....yes, that is not a normal replacement. Somebody cared a lot about that one thing....why? you tell us when you find out.
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That's better. Back at my desk. The WOK auction on Saturday, BTW, was quite good and a real eye opener for anyone who has been at this for a while.

Tony, sorry to get under your skin on what is both an obscure point and one that is not what I came here to get help with (I posted here BTW because all of the in-depth S.58 posts were on this site). As for my original question, I am still searching. My next step is to have the odd insert and one of my standard inserts analyzed and photographed by a friend at 77 Massachusetts Ave. who has helped with these kinds of things before. Spectroscopy can be very helpful. I'll report the results. Certainly the original insert is not useful for diving as is and so an "upgrade" would have made sense for many potential reasons, some of which I've mentioned already.

As for the question that has captured your attention -- the origin of the S.58 nomenclature -- that was never my focus and, as I have REPEATEDLY said, a topic for conjecture not conclusions at this point.

To sum up our respective views:

You have your letter from the successor owner of Zenith which states that the "S" relates to waterproofing and the "58" to the year of manufacture. It does not reference any particular occurrence in 1958 that the watch is commemorating, including the geophysical year, and there is NOTHING in the Zenith advertising of the time to suggest a connection between the watch and any particular event. In spite of that lack of any express connection to anything in 1958, Zenith (per your theory) put the date on both the front and back of the watch. In fact, it is engraved in HUGE letters on the back of the watch. I am not aware of any watch company touting a random year -- or even a year of introduction (except in the anniversary context) -- in that way. It certainly would not do anything to sell watches and would look strange, indeed, on watches produced in subsequent years (the S.58 was produced for a number of years), making the watch seem oddly dated (at a time when that was decidedly not a good thing from a marketing perspective). In short, this is not a sensible theory. The only thing to recommend it is your one sentence letter from a fellow who likely has no knowledge whatsoever of the company's history.

Now, as for my conjecture, I think it has a number of interesting points in its favor. Needless to say, if the S.58 were a Timex or a Vacheron, I would not make this suggestion. However, Zenith has a uniquely deep and important history as a manufacturer of pilot watches and aviation instruments. This is a legacy that they have cultivated and touted in their advertising to this day. If you visit their website (which I can't hot link here) you will see that they have a whole section on their historical aviation instrument business. They also heavily tout their pilot watches and have just reissued the AMI chrono worn, inter alia, by Sikorsky S58 pilots. I have also received now two (totally unsurprising) reports that Zenith instruments were used in Sikorsky helicopters of the 1940s. The S.58 was NOT released as a dive watch (as some forum members here have mistakenly suggested) -- the bezel came in on later versions of the watch. It was initially a manual wind, time only watch in the tradition of the Mark XI/Explorer/Commando/Railmaster. In short, it was the perfect PX watch for a military man with the military aviation flavor provided by the unmistakable S-58 logo as an appealing style point. As for whether the very odd S in S.58 is the Sikorsky S or not, forum members can decide. To my eye it is fairly unmistakable. However, even apart from the font, any airman or marine of the time would get the message just as surely as if Zenith produced an "F-16" pilot watch today. In short, the combination of the nomenclature, the distinctive Sikorsky logo, the pre-existing association of Zenith with Sikorsky (and, more important, with pilot watches and avionics generally), and the fact that Zenith had always targeted the military market (they sold as many DH-style watches as DH watches in WW2) all add up to a very powerful circumstantial case that makes a lot more sense than anything in Marc's letter.

I think you also don't have the full picture of the business scene for watch companies like Zenith in the 50s and 60s. The withering military market was a huge issue and the military market salesman were doing everything they could to stoke sales. It was a huge sector, accounting for more than 15% of overall Swiss watch sales at the time. It also tended to be a highly profitable sector which explains why so many big companies pursued military contracts. And it wasn't just issue watches (I have NEVER suggested that the S.58 was an issue watch). It was PX watches, too. Jenny and Glycine based practically their whole business model during the 60s on base and military mail order purchases. As I have said above, it was military contracts that saved Heuer and BP would have folded a lot sooner without them. You can't even begin to understand how important the military sector was in the 1950s.

As for why Zenith never touted the significance of "S.58" in its advertising, that small problem plagues your theory as much mine. However, I would suggest that it is more of a problem for you. There is NO reason in the world that Zenith would not have mentioned the geophysical year if that was its intention. However, if they wanted to get some traction out of a famous military aircraft association without paying Sikorsky a dime, they would have been smart to keep mum. As you point out, the logo is very slightly different. I think Zenith would have lost a trademark suit, but maybe the small difference was enough to keep Sikorsky at bay (or maybe they just didn't care). But a proper Sikorsky ad campaign would have cost Zenith money.

Anyway, this is all just conjecture, as I keep saying, for now. But your theory seems unconvincing to me, while mine, although it needs shoring up with hard evidence that I will surely look for (I've been at this case for one day) seems very plausible and intriguing in the context of a company with Zenith's aviation history, its repeated reliance on allusions to that history in its marketing, and its specific connection to Sikorsky and S58 pilots. I will be calling Sikorsky in a few hours to see if I can locate someone who know a little bit about early instrument arrays and, possibly, watches.... I hope to visit them in the next few weeks. If you are in the NYC area, perhaps you could join me. I'll buy lunch!

Thanks for all of the input from folks here. If you google around other sites, you will see that some well known military watch experts see significant initial merit in my embryo conjecture. Remember, this is not so much about a specific link to the S58 as it is about marketing watches generally. And, again, the S58 did not begin life as a dive watch. Which brings me back to the question I came here to ask: I'll let you know whether the material used in my insert is identical to the material of the standard insert or not. That seems like a good starting point for that inquiry.

Best, Hurley

PS. Here are a couple of fun and instructive links per the above:

http://watchesbysjx.com/2015/04/zeniths-history-in-pilots-watches-explained-in-five-timepieces.html

https://www.helis.com/database/modelorg/730/
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Well, as I don't wan't to discuss the issue of naming more (as that is fairly pointless), I'd like to know if that particular bezel (radium hash / triangle combination) is used in other watches? It seems odd to me that the manufacturer didn't just lume the triangle.