Do the big auction houses ever get the basics wrong?

 

They'd better keep auctioning cars and other stuff, than Speedmasters

 

I certainly do not consider myself an expert on Speedmasters, that's one of the reasons I joined the forum, to learn, but even I can see this one is not entirely correct. I've also looked at lots 16,17,and 53 and they also appear to have problems. I am not confident enough in my own knowledge but it would be interesting and informative to have other more knowledgeable members views on these lots. I also noted that the estimates appear to be all over the place.

I'm going to get out my copy of MWO now and check if my thoughts are correct!

 

Bezel and dial are later service replacements, which is pretty obvious to anyone on here... that's the estimate there to get them replaced.

 

Silly. And naughty too. They have a responsibility to know what they're selling.

 

Have looked through MWO now and found all four Speedmasters are wrongly described. Wrong production dates, service dials, bezels, hands and bracelets either incorrect or wrongly named, as @Eddie said estimates on some of these are the cost of the correct parts.
This is far from the first time a 'reputable auction house' has appeared on here and been shown to be lazy in it's research. These houses take a sizeable premium on sales, surely it would not take much to be more accurate!
There are some really nice watches in this sale but I would be reluctant to bid without a lot of research having seen the Speedies.
This is the first time I have commented on the originality of watches and would like to know if I am on the right track. I am here to learn.
Thanks.

 

Don't like the pushers either.

 

What happes if -after the auction- the buyer has the speedmaster checked by an expert and it comes to light that parts are incorrect? Isnt the auction house liable then? In 2016 I have purchased a pre moon speedmaster from a dealer and after i noticed that the dial had been replaced i simply used the return right to return the watch and get the money back. The dealer apologiesed and it was not a problem at all.

By the way - what would happen if we contact the auction house and notify them. Would they amend/correct the listings?

 

they might amend the listing if contacted - I did that with a recent auction at a different auctioneer, where it looked like the serial number was out of sequence, and they responded to say the original listing had been incorrect, which they noted.

Thing is, Bonhams haven't made any claims about the originality or otherwise of this watch - it is genuine, just not all original as a real collector would want. So if you bought it and found out later that it had a service dial & hands etc, then too bad - when buying at auction you have less come back against them than you might against a regular dealer. Caveat Emptor, bigly.

 

Yes I forgot to mention that!

 

Im not a lawyer but its difficult to determine at what grade "factory originality" is relevant for the "overall originality" of a watch or when non-pointed out replacement parts trigger legal issues. If you buy a rare speedmaster reference you buy the elements of the watch that make it rare (arrow-hands, dial variants, pusher designs).

Its difficult to put in words but if multiple replacement parts are considered as "watch still original" then someone can could put a 2915 caseback on a 145022 and take it to auction as a "2915 with service replacement parts". :/

 

Has anyone looked at the other three Speedmasters in this sale? I'd really like to know other members views on these. Sorry not up to putting the web link up!
Cheers.

 

Here you go @SouthernScot, all in one place:

Lot 16

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24232/lot/16/

Lot 17

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24232/lot/17/

Lot 52

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24232/lot/52/

Lot 53

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/24232/lot/53/

 

Thanks for taking the time to do this, I must get more proficient. Hopefully there will be some comments on the other three. Once again thanks.

 

Link

Watch sale 21 June 17
Lot 16
- dial looks a bit washed out but might just be bad photos
- bezel correct if a little beaten up
- service replacement hands
- incorrect aftermarket? bracelet
- watch dirty and case back gasket knacked

...

 

Bonhams certainly need to sack their photographer - I've seen better pictures on eBay listings, and no one there is getting a 25% premium. I really have no idea why anyone still buys and sells through these auction houses anymore.

 

Under UK law, there is no right of return of an item unless it is MATERIALLY different to the description. You have to refer to case law to decide if a failure to identify a service replacement part is sufficient to qualify as a "material difference" but (and this is only my opinion), I would say that the fact that it's an open auction would nudge it to be held NOT materially different.

Now, that said, I've known many lots to have been withdrawn because of a query or uncertainty over a description. I've even lost out on a number of absolute bargains because someone's informed the auction house of an error. The one that I can remember was a mixed lot of militaria that had seven early Japanese tsuba and carried an estimate of £40-70 which was withdrawn. The tsuba sold a week later for almost £1000. This is the thrill of the auction.

Again, only my opinion, but you can't happily win on badly catalogued lots and at the same time complain because you lose on others.

I get asked all the time why I don't buy certain lots. For example, I deal in military badges and insignia but I rarely buy medals and that confuses people. The answer's simple: I don't know enough about medals. To further illustrate the point: if anyone wants to buy a couple of fake Iron Crosses ... drop me a PM.

 

I certain agree with respect to the other three lots, but what alerted me here was the description saying Lot 53 was a Speedmaster Professional because it happens to have a Professional dial in a symmetrical case. That's why I asked if they ever get the basics wrong, because they got the model name wrong. Service dials and later but accurate replacement parts are reasonable and something the buyer needs to be wary of, but getting a basic like the model name wrong seems to me to be unacceptable.

 

I totally agree that this is a case of 'buyer beware ' I just think it is a shame that the auction house, that takes a considerable fee on the sales cannot spend a little more time getting the simple things right. From my point of view I was using these four lots to see if my Speedmaster knowledge was improving, and at least I confirmed, when I checked in MWO, that most of my initial observations were right!
Perhaps I am becoming too obsessed with Speedmasters and need to get immersed in something else as well, malt whisky would probably do the trick!

 

If you do, then you can post a "drunkening" thread: http://forums.watchuseek.com/f2/drunkening-my-watches-good-day-girl-4410618.html