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Speedmaster MOTFM......Mars?

Dogmann
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@Professor

Whilst trying not to sound like Monty Python " What has the Space program ever done for us " but seriously could you please elaborate on just what these benefits are as I'm not trying to be facetious but genuinely am struggling to think what they are? never mind if they are worth thousands of times more value than the money spent on the space program.

As for poverty I didn't say or suggest what you say isn't true and I can't see anybody else say anything either other than Evitzee who claimed that since the Industrial revolution Billions have been lifted out of poverty which is clearly not true. I am not sure how or why the standard of living having improved for some over a 300 plus years period has to do with anything or what comfort that is to the ones that are still starving or dying of disease or even again what this is meant to be showing us or proving?

As for "The true pestholes of the modern world are as they are because the inhabitants have been too busy killing each other over generations old feuds ,that only they seem to take seriously, to take advantage of modern economies."

Right so the problems of planet earth are all because of this and have nothing to do with mans greed and corporations raping the land of its resources followed by their total disregard for the planet that has caused all the pollution of our water sources, food sources and even the very air we breathe. But no we cant blame the real cause lets blame Strong Man dictators for it all. I don't know how could it possibly be the biggest corporations and their actions to blame and not forgetting the governments whom allow them to do it either.

Marc
 
Professor
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Dogmann Dogmann
I'm not trying to be facetious but genuinely am struggling to think what they are?
Surely you jest.
Look at all the modern plastics, ceramics and fabrics created In developing materials and hardware for the space program. Look at the advanced alloys. Look at miniaturized electronics and computer control systems. Solar panel technology which has recently become the cause celebre' of tree huggers everywhere.
Look at the weather satellites that give us early warning of storm systems and allow real time storm tracking.
Look at the number of ancient cities once thought to be myths that have been rediscovered by studying satellite imaging.
Does a day go by where satellite imaging is not put to work tracking the pollution and its effects that concern you so much?

How about GPS? You do know what the letters stand for I take it.

Without the space program we'd still be trying to observe the heavens as through a glass darkly, instead of using the Hubble to delve deep into the record of creation and solve mysteries that haunted mankind since they first got a crick in their neck looking up at the night sky.

Far too many benefits to list on this board, perhaps you should look some of this stuff up.

BTW
The Lunar landings established that our planet was once about 3/4 the size it is now, till a wandering planetoid collided and its core melded with that of the Earth. The extra mass and its now spinning iron core allowed an atmosphere to form and hold water and light gases add to that our magnetic field that protects from cosmic rays and Solar wind. A large portion of the lighter material thrown into space coalesced to form our moon. Without that cosmic event life on this planet could never have evolved.
Knowledge is power.

Take this into consideration. Draft animals poop a lot. By the beginning of the 20th century New York had to dispose of thousands of tons of horse manure that at times built up several feet deep on streets. The Spanish Flu may have incubated in the depths of a US Calvary horse depot that was undergoing a major cleanup at the time. The first victims were US troops who had worked on the clean up details.
Without development of petroleum powered transport the major cities would soon have suffered major plagues every few years.

Take away the advances in farming technology and transportation made possible by petroleum and those billions would be starving to death in every country every day in war or peace, and you can bet that there would be no peace anywhere other than the mass graves.

BTW
They have found that the lungs of people living in primitive conditions using only bio fuels for heating and cooking are more damaged by soot and fumes than the average person living in a modern western city despite air pollution.
They found the same signs of lung damage in millennia old mummies found along the Silk Road.
China on the other hand with its Communist rule pumps out more pollution than anyone else on earth.
The old Soviet Union was the worst polluter the world has every known. There are abandoned industrial regions there where researchers must wear space suits just to spend a few minutes taking water samples.
 
Professor
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Dogmann Dogmann
Right so the problems of planet earth are all because of this and have nothing to do with mans greed and corporations raping the land
Non Sequitor.
There's seldom an "either/or" absolute in real life.
 
Dogmann
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@Professor

You are not really suggesting that all modern materials and miniaturised electronics and computer control systems are all down to the Space program and nothing else are you?

You do realise that the Weather satellites precede the Space Program not the other way round and also having Satellites tracking the weather systems and mapping the Earth isn't really space exploration as much as using technology to learn more about our planet as space exploration it most certainly isn't as it is looking down on us not out towards the great unknown or exploring anything.

Sorry but no way can GPS be considered space exploration as you most probably know GPS was originally developed by the US Military to help guide ICBM's to targets and only much later became available with full accuracy to the public again this is not space exploration or even close to it.

So with all of the above once again just how has

"Space program to date has reaped benefits of thousands of times more value than the money spent."

Please give me examples of this thousands of times the value of the money spent benefits that you are claiming as the above don't qualify or show it at all much like the Billions lifted out of poverty claim.

As for this

"BTW
The Lunar landings established that our planet was once about 3/4 the size it is now, till a wandering planetoid collided and its core melded with that of the Earth. The extra mass and its now spinning iron core allowed an atmosphere to form and hold water and light gases add to that our magnetic field that protects from cosmic rays and Solar wind. A large portion of the lighter material thrown into space coalesced to form our moon. Without that cosmic event life on this planet could never have evolved.
Knowledge is power."

Just what has this got to do with anything we are trying to discuss? Nothing at all other than you trying to appear to have superior knowledge or intellect and IMO failing to do so as whilst you may sarcastically quote

"Knowledge is power"

My response to you is

"Ignorance is bliss"

Sorry again I don't get your what you are trying to say or prove with your information about animals pooping and petrol and modernisation having an effect on modern farming and claiming billions would of of been starving in war or peace. As opposed to what? Billions still starving and dying of disease now in war and peace? what is your point?

In response to your final BTW

"They have found that the lungs of people living in primitive conditions using only bio fuels for heating and cooking are more damaged by soot and fumes than the average person living in a modern western city despite air pollution."

Yay isn't modern man brilliant our lungs aren't as damaged as those living in primitive conditions burning fossil fuels so while we live in a modern western city with air pollution we won't get quite as sick as them isn't that brilliant? not forgetting that those living in their primitive society burning fossil fuels is still also impacted by everyone's air pollution on top of it.

So we are still going to get sick and some predisposed with certain conditions will suffer worse due to poor air quality but hey its not as bad as if we were living in a primitive society burning fossil fuels so its all good then is it? Seriously an argument of someone else is worse off so we are OK as its not as bad is pathetic beyond belief.

As for your China and Soviet Russia points about pollution where has anyone said that is right but to pretend its all them and no good capitalist society in the west is guilty of the same or worse is just plain absurd.

I don't care about Capitalism or Communism and don't blame either ideology as to do so is to try and distract from the simple truth and facts, its mankind and his greed and disregard for others and the effects of his actions that is and will continue to destroy the planet and blaming others or denying the effects and not taking actions or being held accountable is exactly why mankind will fail to resolve any of these issues and by the time they realise it, it will be to late to doing anything about it IMHO as it already is.

By the way I haven't said or claimed the world is better off without any of those things all I have said and am saying is that mankind doesn't care about tomorrow it only cares about today and how much it can make and to hell with the future consequences as its not there problem. I haven't said ban technology or fossil fuels or turn off the electricity just simply that nearly all of the problems the planet and mankind face are of mankind's own making and as mankind mostly refuses to even accept they exist never mind address any of them IMO that doesn't make the future bright for mankind on planet earth.

Marc
 
Professor
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Dogmann Dogmann
You do realise that the Weather satellites precede the Space Program not the other way round
The American Space program began in earnest in 1957 specifically to put satellites in orbit, the first weather satellite was launched in 1959.
You may be under the impression that no space program existed before John Kennedy made his great speech in 1961.

You don't seem to recognize that near Earth space and earth orbit are in fact space.

Logically just how did you expect satellites to achieve orbit without a rocket , guidance system , ground control and all the trappings?

I think you are trying to forget that all of this falls under the auspices of the "Space Program".

You seem to want to separate everything beyond earth orbit from the rest. You want to separate the USAF satellite and space vehicle programs from the NASA programs.

Doesn't work that way.

As for GPS it was to improve navigation of vessels and later Aircraft, missile guidance was secondary. You can't launch a ballistic missile with accuracy unless you know exactly where your launching platform is located. Of course DARPA jumped on it big time.

Dogmann Dogmann
In response to your final BTW

"They have found that the lungs of people living in primitive conditions using only bio fuels for heating and cooking are more damaged by soot and fumes than the average person living in a modern western city despite air pollution."

Yay isn't modern man brilliant our lungs aren't as damaged as those living in primitive conditions burning fossil fuels so while we live in a modern western city with air pollution we won't get quite as sick as them isn't that brilliant? not forgetting that those living in their primitive society burning fossil fuels is still also impacted by everyone's air pollution on top of it.
So we are still going to get sick and some predisposed with certain conditions will suffer worse due to poor air quality but hey its not as bad as if we were living in a primitive society burning fossil fuels so its all good then is it? Seriously an argument of someone else is worse off so we are OK as its not as bad is pathetic beyond belief.

Not as pathetic as someone who can't tell the difference between BIO FUELs and FOSSIL fuels. Bio fuels have been in use since man discovered fire. I would have thought my reference to the silk road mummies put it in perspective.
India recently began banning the use of bio fuels because these produce as much or more CO2 and far more particulates than fossil fuels. They had found that loss of glacier ice in Nepal was due to black carbon particulates from bio fuels settling out on the ice rather than any increases in air temperature. They are now concentrating on natural gas and some forms of bio gas, bio diesel is now a no no as are solid bio fuels such as wood and animal dung.
The "Asian Brown Haze" extends from the Indian Ocean to the North pole, first discovered in the late fifties and early 60's by USAF weather planes.
"Grey Ice" has been a recognized factor in Arctic ice loss since the early 20th century.
Dogmann Dogmann
Sorry again I don't get your what you are trying to say or prove with your information about animals pooping and petrol and modernisation having an effect on modern farming and claiming billions would of of been starving in war or peace. As opposed to what? Billions still starving and dying of disease now in war and peace? what is your point?
A few of Earth's billions aren't getting enough to eat, would you rather that none of Earth's billions got enough to eat?
A few of Earth's billions aren't getting quality medical care, would you rather that none of Earth's billions got any medical care?

The "Third World" as they always referred to it is responsible for the vast majority of its own problems. The lines are becoming blurred as the third world now seems to begin just outside the city limits of most African and Middle Eastern countries, and in the slums of cities everywhere.

If you believe that all disasters are man's doing you aren't much of a student of history.
Ever heard of "The Great Drowning of Men"? Ever read up on any of the great tempests that drowned cities and kingdoms?
Ever heard of a single major earth quake or volcanic eruption caused by human interference?
Poor water management and defective dams have resulted in floods, poor building practices have caused a few land slides, but otherwise mother nature has not always been kind and has been far more destructive.

The Great Madrid Earthquake was not caused by lack of faith of the Inhabitants, much as the church would have had them believe, it was mother nature doing her thing. Mankind is not responsible for every disaster, or even a noticeable percentage. Till one can see that no progress will be made.

PS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASA_spinoff_technologies
Edited:
 
Omegafanman
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@Dogmann - " What has the Space program ever done for us "......


Intangibles: -
For example, framing the Earth and helping kick start the environmental movement: The blue marble photograph, taken on December 7, 1972, is one of the most widely distributed photographic images in existence.Earthrise rise is a photograph of Earth and some of the Moon’s surface that was taken during the Apollo 8 mission. Nature photographer Galen Rowell declared it "the most influential environmental photograph ever taken".

Tangibles such as :-
Advanced water filtration
Understanding sustainable biospheres / self-contained ecosystems
Fuel cells, Solar panels, Satellites (sat nav/GPS), Robotics and machine learning
Rapid diagnostics - Advanced Diagnostic Ultrasound in Microgravity
Environmental monitoring / weather prediction
Protein crystallization (drug treatment)
Microcomputers
Vacuum cleaners, memory foam, smoke detection, scratch resistant lenses.
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/...emming-from-Space-Exploration-2013-TAGGED.pdf

As I mentioned with my LAGEOS picture post on page 1 war and weapons are also strong drivers for technology and also link into the above. It is just better for all of us if we keep moving towards exploration and learning rather than conflict as a key driver
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135918main_bm1_high.jpg 1024px-NASA_Earthrise_AS08-14-2383_Apollo_8_1968-12-24.jpg
Omegafanman
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Professor Professor
Space program to date has reaped benefits of thousands of times more value than the money spent.
As for poverty. The vast majority of middle class people in most countries in the 19th century and earlier would envy the poorest person in Europe or North America of today.
The true pestholes of the modern world are as they are because the inhabitants have been too busy killing each other over generations old feuds ,that only they seem to take seriously, to take advantage of modern economies. The Strong Man Dictators of said pestholes take advantage of this by deliberately keeping their populations poor and hopeless.

This is a very difficult topic. I would say I don't think humanity has helped itself and that local issues typically have a much wider historical / geopolitical background. For example a lot of wealth in my home town came from the conquest and exploitation of other countries and also slavery from the colonies. Looking at the partition of India / partition of Palestine and more recently the interventions in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya, I am not sure people are always set up for success. As I have said before it is not problems which destroy society it is normally the solutions. Germany in the thirties and forties plus the Stanford prison experiments show what any person/ society is capable of if the right structure is put in place. With all the years of psychological research and now the information gathering of Facebook and Google I suspect the powers that be have all the information they need to keep the local inhabitants of any country moving in the required direction to suit a given objective...
 
Dogmann
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@all

I would like to apologise to the Forum as I have taken what was a discussion about a new possible LTD Speedy and IMO taken it way off topic even though part of the question was "what next for the Speedy and the Human Species?" and focused on the what next for the Human Species and this will be my last post on the subject.

I am am not going to get drawn in to every increasing disagreements about semantics and the state of the world and its causes or possible solutions or lack of as it is obvious some of us here are never going to agree and don't really think a watch forum is the best place to debate this.

We are all entitled to our opinions and views and only time will show who was right so as I said as of now I'm out.
Wishing Health and Happiness to all.

Marc
Edited:
 
Omegafanman
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@Dogmann - no need to apologise but well said anyway - health and happiness / luck and laughter. I think the fact there are so many debates just on this forum shows humanity is a way off any form of fully joined up unified objective (which depending on whose objective gets picked might not always be a bad thing). In terms of this thread my main objective was 1) what type of wristwatch (if any) will be worn by the first people on mars, 2) will and how will we get to mars anytime soon and 3)...My god don't the new NASA spacesuit designs look bloody awful (Buzz Lightyear on acid) IMHO :0)
 
Professor
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Omegafanman Omegafanman
1) what type of wristwatch (if any) will be worn by the first people on mars,


Heads up display inside helmets, otherwise about the same as worn now.

Omegafanman Omegafanman
2) will and how will we get to mars anytime soon
Less and less likely to be done within the next 25 years. Possibly before the next century begins, but will require some pressing need to free up the cash and resources.

Omegafanman Omegafanman
3)...My god don't the new NASA spacesuit designs look bloody awful (Buzz Lightyear on acid) IMHO :0)

A Mars suit protective armor prototype, intended to protect the suit itself from micro meteor impacts and wind blown debris as well as sharp rocks and such, was used as the basis for the robot costumes in the Robin Williams film "The Bicentennial Man".
Buzz Lightyear's space armor looks pretty cool to me, more streamlined than a lot of other designs.
Its not necessary that a spacesuit be bulky if bound to an umbilical and intended for short term wear, but if you plan to get much done outside you have a lot of hardware to pack around with you.

There's a promising fabric pressure suit in development. Pretty much a full body compression stocking. Very lightweight and form fitting. more like a Sci Fi artistic rendition than what we've become used to.
 
Omegafanman
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@Professor Thanks for the reply. I still hope the pack a Speedy as back up or at least just for a good luck charm (plus batteries and sunlight might be in short supply at times). I agree the actual Buzz lightyear suit is cool...on Buzz... But not when add cut off shorts which seem to be a feature of the NASA suits (maybe 2 piece?).
 
Professor
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Omegafanman Omegafanman
But not when add cut off shorts
Heavy USMC body armor includes a pull over pair of kevlar trunks. Extra protection would allow one to take a seat if necessary. Also more than one Lunar astronaut fell on his keister while bouncing around in low gravity.
 
Omegafanman
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I thought watched in order these videos / articles give a good background. In political / business terms speed is of the essence so a 10 year plan makes sense - so 2030 could be viable? Logically the next step for any species would be to go interplanetary if it could and expand its territory? I do think it will be bad news if we find signs of life in our solar system - it will show life is ubiquitous - which would mean our (Human Race) chances of survival or developing much further are very very slim (and they are already not that great IMHO). I still think we need a worthy technical challenge and Mars fits the bill, plus it will hedge our bets in case we screw up or suffer some form of extinction level event here (Earth). Also need to get a Speedy on Mars :0)



https://www.space.com/nasa-moon-2024-landing-mars-2033.html
 
Longbow
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Lots of interesting topics covered in this thread but I‘m missing the most important one.

How are we going to get broadband access to OmegaForums from Mars; we will need decent bandwidth with all the high resolution photos here and no one likes waiting?

The first wristshot from there will be a scoop. Game on.
9C109DFE-28BE-4617-8575-0C4A509D35C4.png
 
Omegafanman
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Longbow Longbow
Lots of interesting topics covered in this thread but I‘m missing the most important one.
How are we going to get broadband access to OmegaForums from Mars; we will need decent bandwidth with all the high resolution photos here and no one likes waiting?
The first wristshot from there will be a scoop. Game on.
9C109DFE-28BE-4617-8575-0C4A509D35C4.png

The 4G Moon network looks like it will be a year late...due in 2019 but now looks like 2020. It is part Omega sponsored. I hope they get the 4G planning better for Mars :0)

https://mission-to-the-moon.com/press-release/

https://www.vodafone.com/content/in...nokia-to-create-first-4g-network-on-moon.html
 
Longbow
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Omegafanman Omegafanman
The 4G Moon network looks like it will be a year late...due in 2019 but now looks like 2020. It is part Omega sponsored. I hope they get the 4G planning better for Mars :0)

https://mission-to-the-moon.com/press-release/

https://www.vodafone.com/content/in...nokia-to-create-first-4g-network-on-moon.html
Thanks for the heads up, very interesting. I hope they are not planning to just deploy terrestrial solutions up there; they will need to be RadHard.
 
Omegafanman
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Longbow Longbow
Thanks for the heads up, very interesting. I hope they are not planning to just deploy terrestrial solutions up there; they will need to be RadHard.

COTs is getting popular in these economically tough times (and that approach did not do the Speedmaster any harm back in the day) … but I do wonder what state the deep space roadster is in after a few months of radiation...:0)

http://www.spacetechasia.com/using-commercial-off-the-shelf-components-for-space-applications/

Picture = By SpaceX - Falcon Heavy Demo Mission, CC0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=66235862
 
1280px-Elon_Musk's_Tesla_Roadster_(40110297852).jpg
Longbow
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Omegafanman Omegafanman
COTs is getting popular in these economically tough times (and that approach did not do the Speedmaster any harm back in the day) … but I do wonder what state the deep space roadster is in after a few months of radiation...:0)

http://www.spacetechasia.com/using-commercial-off-the-shelf-components-for-space-applications/

Picture = By SpaceX - Falcon Heavy Demo Mission, CC0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=66235862

There’s not much (electronics) to fail in a mechanical Speedmaster, although I suppose the Hesalite (Polymethyl methacrylate) crystal might darken and become more brittle with prolonged radiation exposure and its owner would also be a bit under the weather.

That link talks mostly about electronics but doesn’t really address the use of high speed opto-electronics and optical fiber-based comms which are also popular in satellites; those components are highly susceptible to radiation effects. The dopants in telecom i.e. COTS grade fiber cores act as color centers under radiation, causing signal attenuation and the comms links to eventually fail. The high speed VCSEL emitters commonly used in cheap Chinese GigEthernet transceivers will also object as dark line and dark spot defects grow in their structures.

It’s certainly tempting for designers and program managers to choose cheap parts to keep shipset costs down, but those costs are peanuts compared to mission failure. The art is knowing where to spend, where to save and how to mitigate by system architecture.

Since we are playing link ping-pong here’s a nice paper for you:-
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/514c/22304f8a19eeba74ff40244b5d75edc40651.pdf
 
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