Hi everyone...

In preparation for a potential acquisition of a vintage Speedmaster I’ve been looking around for a while and trying to learn as much about them as possible as possible - I’ve been using the forum and also the Moonwatch Only book to try and get a feel for what original and what’s not on a whole bunch of different watches, some for sale and some not…

Just wonder if anyone can critique my thoughts on the dial of this one which seems to be all original ?
125.012-65, late model year production, (serial number 2453xxxx which fits in the range of numbers for a ‘65 according to the MOW books' latest addendum on their web page)

Hands and Lume seem correct, some loss on the hour hand, perhaps indicating age.
Dial Lume, good condition, seems to be the correct colour, aged to a yellow patina
Stepped dial looks to be the right finish with the larger hour markers running right to the edge
Pushers - not sure here, maybe it’s the angle of the photo, they seem to be of the right size but seem to be sticking out a little more that I’d expect , are they perhaps service items
Bezel - good overall condition, numbers slightly go off the edges in places, but other examples seem to also show this occasionally
Omega name and logo, correct font and spacing - I think
Case condition - edges seem quite sharp - seems good from the angle of the photo

Query’s
The T Swiss T script is nice and close to the scale, but is a close T marking like this- usually found on the earlier 65’s- appropriate for a later -65 ? - Perhaps they were using dial stock out of chronological order.
Sub dials - no signs of any concentric rings, maybe not enough detail in the photo, but if they are 100% not there, even under a loupe, would this be a sign that something is amiss.

Anything I’ve missed?

Thanks to all ..

 

The pushers appear correct, and from the one photo you included I'm thinking that will be a very expensive watch. Appears to come with a flat link bracelet as well and an immaculate DON bezel. Good find for your first vintage speedy. Would still like to see photos of the inner and outer caseback and the movement to confirm authenticity.

 

I don't understand what is this new fear of concentric ring missing...
Nice watch BTW..

 

Oooh, I'd buy that if the price was right.
Getting rare in this condition now.

 

Nice looking watch! I agree with sky21, pushers look correct to me. I get nervous when the marker lume on a 50 year old watch looks
that perfect, but I guess that's just me. I would bet that with a loupe, the concentric subdial rings will be there.

 

Because prices are rising. It's a lot of money to spend and then discover it is not right. My own opinion is that the sub dials should have some evidence of concentric circles. If not then it could be a a redial or a rarity.
In this case the dial looks good to me

 

I think that there is a lot of things that can lead to the conclusion that a dial is repainted or fake. When everything is fine, close to perfection, spacing, typo, step etc... And that concentric ring are missing ( or are mostly invisible)... That will not lead me to the conclusion of a fake dial...that was my point. in other words, concentric circle are the last things I will worried about before concluding of a fake or repainted dial...

 

What data do you have to support that opinion? Maybe not having concentric rings is a big flag of a fake or redial? (not talking about 'mostly invisible" rings). It seems from what I have read that rings should be present, albeit they may be quite faint.
Just because this issue has not been overly discussed in the past does not mean it may not be important. And as spacefruit stated, because of the prices of these now, people want to be extra careful as they should.

 

I am not sure that I expressed myself clearly. Sorry about that. Non native English... I just tried to say that judging a dial only on the concentric ring is not enough for me. There is many other parameters into account. If everything is OK such as typo, size and curve of each letters, spacing, step, aspect, color etc... And if the concentric ring are missing, I will not take the risk to judge it as a fake dial...

We saw an example last week here were concentric ring were missing on only one sub dial... So strange thing can happen...

 

I understand and agree with you except that that one subdial without rings would bother me enough not to buy it because I can not explain it.
Until I am shown otherwise, speedy dials should have the rings, however faint. But, I understand how others would not be bothered by this. Are we beating a dead horse

 

The high price of these older watches and the frequency of fakes and franken watches has caused me to rethink buying a used Speedy.
I continue to look and have done a lot of reading here but my worry about people trying to scam me has made me feel a lot better about paying the price for a new watch.

 

I think there is too much worrying going on regarding the propriety of a Moonwatch dial. Compared with other dials, the Moonwatch is rather complex in its design and it is relatively easy to spot a fake or redial. In addition, sources such as MWO, this forum and speedmaster101.com aid all in securing quality watches. Perhaps a quality relume is hard to spot and that really doesn't bother me very much.

Conversely, there a many more perils in collecting Diver Seamasters. Fake dials, bezels, mid cases and Casebacks are common.

 

This came up the other day on another post and the OP was referred to @Spacefruit 's post - http://speedmaster101.com/blog/concentric-circles-on-subdials/ .

I don't know if there's been a formal thread dedicated to the question but it'd be nice to know for each reference.

I have a 105.012-65 with the later-in-the-year wide T's and concentric circles but I haven't louped a narrow spaced T professional dial recently enough to know off-hand. I can see mine faintly without a loupe and at least on your high resolution picture you can't see them. I would like to see a picture with those clearly displayed before I went forward. Other than that, great lume and hopefully the rest of the watch checks out.

 

maybe we can revive this thread: https://omegaforums.net/threads/speedmaster-subdials.28028/

 

Ok, it might sounds stupid, but should I have these rings on the newer model? Mine is 3570.50 and I don't see any signs of the rings.



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https://www.omegawatches.com/filead...nwatch_Prof_31130423001005_fuite_1600x900.jpg

 

My daily wearer is a 3570.50 bought new from an AD. The concentric circles are there but very faint. Need a 10x loupe to see them. I wouldn't even attempt to try and photograph them

 

Maybe this is the case for mine, I can't really see them with the naked eye.
I bought it here from trusted seller.

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Never mind, I can see them trough magnifying lense from the laser sensor that I am using on equipment at work, they are there, but sooooooo faint...I don't think any camera would show it...

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Thanks to all for the replies, some interesting discussions. Good to know I'm not too far out on my evaluation.

re the visibility of the rings, I wonder if it just comes down to how thick the dial paint is on any particular watch, thickness of the dial metal blank or maybe the operator just not pressing the machine quite so hard to complete the operation?

Does anyone know how much variability to expect on dials of this age when looking at the real fine details, - I presume they were being made on what would today be considered fairly crude machinery (would it be still worked by hand ?), so when it comes to application of the lettering and numbers some minute differences may be seen (I'm taking for example, perhaps the speedmaster pro lettering being the same font / pitch but located fractionally lower on the dial by 1 - 2 of mm etc) perhaps this is then further complicated by multiple machines being used for the same operation or different sub suppliers

I'm basing this on a particular model year which would be expected to be fairly uniform and ruling out transitional examples of using up old design stocks etc

is much known of the real minute detail of speedmaster production of this time ? Did Omega carry this out all in one factory or buy in stock sub assembly's etc I'd be interested if anyone could point me to a good article or discussion on this if any exists .

many thanks again all, appreciate the input.