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  1. watchyouwant ΩF Clairvoyant Jul 16, 2017

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  2. tamura Jul 16, 2017

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    Ha ha, what a B.S.!:D
    Cal.284? Swan neck position? Serial no? Adjusted? ::facepalm1::
     
  3. tamura Jul 16, 2017

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  4. tamura Jul 16, 2017

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    How do you regulate in the A 1 position ?
    bbbbaaar.PNG
     
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  5. Canuck Jul 16, 2017

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    The regulator on these is made of two parts. When the micrometer screw is turned, the whole regulator adjusts. The tail piece where the hairspring curb pins are is "piggy backed" onto the hub of the regulator arm, and the tail piece is adjusted to bring the rate close. Final regulating is done using the micrometer screw. So there is no need for the regulator arm to have a wide arc for adjustment.
     
  6. JimInOz Melbourne Australia Jul 16, 2017

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  7. tamura Jul 16, 2017

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    This is the regulator for the 2777 railmaster prototype
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Canuck Jul 16, 2017

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  9. gemini4 Hoarder Of Speed et alia Jul 16, 2017

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    I contacted the seller days ago regarding the issues with his listing. He had mentioned he would pull it but hasn't obviously. As he listed this as a BIN for a huge number, I don't think he is getting much interest:)

    Last I heard, he was planning on ordering an extract to accertain what watch this movement started life in.
     
  10. tamura Jul 16, 2017

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    Hmm
    The regulator from the ebay movement is a very small maybe cal. 344 regulator - the rest is a normal 30mm bridge.
    I can make you a prototype like this every day ::bleh::
    bbbaaaswan.jpg
     
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  11. JohnSteed Jul 16, 2017

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    Broken off ...
     
  12. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jul 16, 2017

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    Cut off...
     
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  13. JohnSteed Jul 16, 2017

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    Yeah...couldn't fathom the ineptitude :unsure:
     
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  14. Bill Sohne Bill @ ΩF Staff Member Jul 16, 2017

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    Hi Everyone.....

    I actually noticed the auction yesterday .... was also more then a little upset has he took my scans removed my email watermarks and posted as part of his auction. He also mentions me in the auction description. I am torn to contact him directly.. .

    In my opinion this caliber 284 did not leave the factory in Bienne this way. As @tamura pointed pointed out ... if you look at the balance cock ( balance bridge) you see the engraving for the Advance / Retard range of motion of the regulator does not match up what the regular range of motion is... The funny thing when I first posted what I found on MWR . The folks over there pointed out that a swan neck spring can easily be added to a standard balance cock , but my comeback was to also look at the balance cock engraving and how unique it is and it matches the reduced range of the swan neck. Just to do that after the factory someone would have to take that bridge mill off the original engraving, then engrave the new rage marking and then replate it! really ?, that was my reply back then...

    Now we actually can see what a " After" the factory modification would look like. ..


    At lest it will be easy for him ( assuming) to the a Omega extract right ?? He is in the USA....

    I hate to give a hard answer to a question of originality. Like " NO", I would rather say if the seller offered it to me for 100$ I would not buy it.


    Your mileage may very !

    Good Hunting

    Bill Sohne
     
  15. Bill Sohne Bill @ ΩF Staff Member Jul 16, 2017

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    Hi Everyone....

    Well its sad seems my original post from 2008 has losts it links to the photos... and I just pulled a copy from Purist pro .... sans the photos... will see what I can do about reconstituting the original post here..... This would not have happened if Chuck did not die... I normally send him a copy with all hi res files for his website.. as a backup...

    the post

    The watch that almost got away !
    Jan 11, 2008,19:36 PM
    Hello everyone....


    Back in 1999 I came across a odd looking Omega on ebay. I was very interested in buying the watch. I placed what I thought was a high bid for the watch. The auction did not make its reserve price. I then proceeded to contact the seller. We had a few back and forth emails but was not able to "close the deal". i said to him please let me know if plan on selling in the future. I would send an email every 6 months or so to check in. Then he stopped returning my emails ( approx. 2001).

    Well life goes on and so did my watch hunting. i have found other interesting timepieces over the years. Then one day in 2005 I was viewing MWR's PX and saw FS post titled " FS Omega while dial Railmaster ". Most people did not even clicked on the post, as Omega in the 1960s a while dial railmaster automatic that is NOT in demand. In comparison to the earlier manual wind Railmaster that was introduced in 1957 that had as special case construction that shielded the movement from magnetic interference.

    Upon opening of the post the image that appeared was white dial Railmaster that was the same odd model of the one I "lost" back in 1999. As fast as my mail program would open i sent a email to the seller that I would take it. As soon as I sent it and email came in from a friend on the west coast saying he was going to buy the watch! I gave him a call and asked when he sent his email to the seller and it was before me. I thought oh well but at lest my friend will get it. During the phone conversation he then said to me " I really cant buy it as cash is tight". i took that as an opening for me to say " Hey, you know I sent him a email also but it was after yours and if you decide to pass on the watch please email the seller to let me buy it next.". To make a long story short I was able to purchase the watch but had a problem getting it back home to the USA. As the seller did not want to ship it outside of Germany. I had the watch shipped to my close friend Steve Waddington. Upon getting the watch steve told it arrived ok. He asked me about shipping the watch to me I replied " How far away are you from Munich ?" He asked why and I mentioned to him about watch fair that coming weekend. Steve said no problem he will deliver it to another friend at the fair who will bring it back to the states ( I did not realize that it was a 3 plus hour trip one way for Steve). Steve got the watch to Rick at the show and gave Steve a tour! Rick had to show off my new watch to multiple dealers at the Munich fair. I got an email from one of them., James Dowling who is also a close friend. James thought it was great and never saw another one like it. I agreed.

    A week later I finally received the box from Rick. Upon opening the box and under close examination I realize this was the EXACT watch that I missed buying back in 1999. This watch was originally posted for sale in Canada, sold to someone in Germany and then I was able to buy it. I just started to laugh.

    The typical White dial Railmaster Automatic

    [​IMG]


    Here the sellers photos of the "watch that almost got away !"

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Here are photos of a Typical RAF 53 "Thin Arrow" Pilots watch from 1953

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There are three things that are uncommon to this watch.

    1) The case ref 2777 was the case ref for the RAF 53 Pilot watch from Omega. This reference was never offered in a civilian model ( until this watch came up !!).

    2) The dial is a white version sans the Broadarrow of the RAF 53 dial . i have never seen this before. On top of that it was signed " Omega " " Railmaster".

    3) Close examination of the caliber 283 movement shows that it actually has a Swan neck regulator for micro adjustments. I never came across any Omega documents that mention Omega used a swan neck regulator on any 30 mm family movement. The only micro regulator on a 30 mm was the "Omega System " used on a 30 T2Rg ( that model did not have shock protection).

    Now the quest begins.


    I first posted the watch on the MWR. I got a a lot of comments that included " redial" and "modified movement outside of the factory" . I had the watch in hand and knew it was not a redial and the movement looked factory original to me. I then sent an email to my friend John Deithem at Omega.

    His reply was the following...

    * the OMEGA mvt N° 14'158'9xx is of caliber 283 - special adjustment
    for " chronometer rating " ( but not officially certified ! )
    * the case of ref. CK 2777 is the special construction , exclusively
    delivered up to 1953 to the pilots of the RAF, and which has the inside
    protection mumétal cover.
    * it looks like that we had too many cases in stock of the ref. CK
    2777 and which were then in 1955 no longer required to be delivered to the
    British Army... hence we had converted these " RAF " to another special
    version, i.e. the ref. CK 2777 - with the original movement with "
    chronometer special rating " of cal. 283.... but fitted with a dial marked "
    Railmaster " and delivered to our Agents in Canada.
    * What is not possible to clear up, is why this " special " has been
    made.
    * We anticipate that we had, at those days, a huge quantity of cases,
    which were not introduced in the " International Collection " , hence not to
    be used as a " normal " item of the Collection. The " Railmaster " version
    was then made perhaps as only for the Canadian Railroad, with the white dial
    and the hands looking different from the RAF watches ...
    * Therefore, the movement with a special regulator is a " novelty "
    under the version of cal. 283, but indeed genuine !
    * For your information, your watch has been delivered ( strangely...)
    under the ref. CK 2777 ( wonder why using the same ref. as for the RAF...! )
    to Canada, on October 24, 1955.
    * The tool to make the cases " CK 2777 " have been destroyed in
    1959...

    have a nice day

    John

    John's email was a good starting point. But it was not a definitive answer . Why have i not seen more examples of these watches.

    I sent John another email....

    Hi John

    I just got an email from another collector, He recently bought a CK 2777-2
    with a black dial that is signed Railmaster. The caliber 283 also has the
    swan neck regulator. The watches serial number is 13 units away from my
    White dial example that I bought a few years ago.

    I have included your original research on my example. I would assume this
    watch was also shipped to Canada at the same time in 1955.

    Black dial same style as the RAF 53 ck 2777, but is signed Railmaster and
    has removable strap bars.
    Case ref: CK 2777-2
    Movement: Caliber 283 with swan neck regulator, s/n 14,158,9xx

    Any additional info on the above watch would be great.

    John do you have any Idea how many caliber 283 with the "special" swan neck
    regulator was produced?
    ( someone mentioned to me it was like 250 units, but I cant confirm that).

    Do you know how many white dial Railmaster ck2777-2 were produced?

    Do you know how many black dial Railmaster ck2777-2 were produced?

    John, do you know if there are any White or black Railmaster dials availbe
    in the spare parts at Omega and if so what are the part numbers?

    Sorry for asking so many questions, but I know this is really an odd example
    from Omega. Its a very special watch, it is really the FIRST Railmaster
    from Omega.

    I like to think if it this way, its a watch that is :

    1) chronometre grade
    2) Shock proof
    3) Antimagnetic
    4) White dialed ( my example is)
    5) Steel cased.
    6) Civil version of a exclusive military case!
    7) Water resistant screwback case!
    8) 38 mm in size!

    This is really a very uncommon watch. The black dial version that someone
    bought and contacted me is the second one I have seen in all my years of
    looking at Omegas.

    Talk to you soon

    Best regards

    Bill

    -----

    Well as time marched on. I came across a few other ck 2777-2 no other with a white dial but they all had the 283 with swan neck regulator.


    They are all within a Very tight Serial number range, less then 1000.

    14,158,9xx

    According to the movement number we found some traces about the 3 watches ref. CK 2777 mentioned:

    N° 14’158’9## - MOA -Production date : 31.10.1955 – Delivery date from factory : 18.04.1961 – UK

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    N° 14’158’9## – White Dial Railmaster Production date : 27.10.1955 – Delivery date from factory : 17.01.1956 –Canada

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    N° 14’158’9## – Black Dial Railmaster Production date : 29.10.1955 – Delivery date from factory : 17.01.1956 – Canada
    I am not sure if the hands are original on this example. I think it would have the same hands as a RAF 53.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    During this period of October 1955, several serials of 10 movements have been produced and most of them delivered to Canada but also to RAF/ UK for a few of them. Production sheets specify “Réglage Spécial” which means, “adjustment in four positions similar to chronometer standards”. But there is no mention of a fine adjustment regulator system.


    I have talked with other 30mm “specialist, collectors” they also agree with me that the swan neck appears to be factory original.

    I have sent emails to Omega about the swan neck regulator and photos of the other Ck 2777-2. But they can find no documentation to confirm that this was done at the factory.

    Omega first denied it, I then sent close ups of the balance cock and regulator. I asked them to take a close look at the workmanship. For this to be done aftermarket or "Out side of Bienne". The watchmaker who did it would have had to remove the balance cock. Mill down the plate to remove the standard engraving for the regulator and then engrave the range box for the fine index regulator and then re-plate the part and then install the swan neck regulator.


    I finally get another email from John who translated Daniel's research. Please keep in mind this did not happen over night about 10 months past before I got the next email from Omega

    -----

    Bill

    Just for information, the following is a translation of the “news” just received from Daniel Anselmi – he is still on the work and we shall than have a final report by the end of January 2006.
    In the meantime here is what he says:


    Two of Bill Sohne’s watches of ref. CK 2777 and having the mvt N° 14’158’9xx und 14’158’9xx have been produced in October 1955 and according available photos, both have been fitted with the “ swan neck regulator”

    However, the Museum watches having the same ref. CK 2777 and a mvt N° 12’804’201(Jan. 1953) , 12’999’581 ( June 1953) and 14’591’921 ( Sept. 1955) are not equipped with such regulator system, despite the fact that all are registered as “ RG “ but have no swan neck nor a RG regulator.
    It seems, therefore, that the serial N° 14’158…is the field in which all such watches have been equipped with a “swan neck regulator”, probably only during a short period, since we have never seen such watch.

    This is becoming more than interesting and Daniel has promised to continue his researches and we shall not fail to keep you informed about the development of this matter - that will be therefore the first good news for the beginning of 2006.

    Blessed Holidays

    John

    -----

    When I first read John email above I had a feeing that we were getting somewhere FAST ! Then a few days later I got another email...

    Omega has CONFIRMED my 283 with swan neck is original from the factory. They found only TWO pieces of documentation that shows the regulator and balance cock with the proper engravings. Both of these drawings are dated June 29 1955. They are drawing of the two parts: balance bridge 284.1006 and the swan neck regulator 284.1356. There is no other documentation at Bienne, no spare parts, no other indication that this watch was ever produced. The part number are referenced to the next caliber they were designing caliber 284. Also on the drawing of the balance bridge written in pencil “Cancelled on December 14th 1957”. A very small number of these 283 Swan neck movements were produced, aka caliber 283 Rg.

    [​IMG]



    Actual movement pics
    with case back and anti magnetic inner cover.

    [​IMG]

    Close up of the swan neck regulator

    [​IMG]

    I think the email from Omega says it best ....

    “ this type of product has certainly been manufactured during a short period of time which corresponds to the time of production of your watch. For any reason, this version has been cancelled soon, which explains why the watches same reference belonging to the Museum, produced at a different period of time, have a well known 283 calibre with standard regulator.

    *Unfortunately we have presently no trace of destination or amount of movements produced in that version. “


    The other question outstanding about the two 1955 Railmasters ( one black dial example and one white dial example). The Railmaster wasn’t introduced until 1957, but both examples were sold in Jan of 1956 and produced in Oct of 1955 according to Omega records.

    According to Marco Richon : ( Omega Museum, Bienne)

    - This white dial is original and produced in small quantity for specific order or purpose … (or) ( have not seen another white dial example).

    - This white dial has been refurbished according to customer desire … (or) ( No this is an original dial)

    This watch is a prototype for the future “Railmaster” model.


    Well since that email. Marco Richon was writing a new Omega book " A Journey Through Time". He had asked me for hi res photos of my watch as he thought it might be interesting to have it in the book. Well about a 15 months later a box showed up on my door step ( I purchased it ). On page 221 Marco has a picture of two Railmasters one of them happens to be mine !

    [​IMG]

    And the close up of the text !
    [​IMG]



    What you have just read transpired over a nine year period. I just wanted to share the story with everyone here !

    Happy Holidays and Happy New Year to all

    Best regards

    Bill Sohne
     
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  16. gemini4 Hoarder Of Speed et alia Jul 16, 2017

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    Hi Bill

    I think I saved a bunch of those photos. See below
    IMG_4965.JPG IMG_4966.JPG IMG_4967.JPG IMG_4968.JPG IMG_4969.JPG IMG_4970.JPG IMG_4971.JPG IMG_4972.JPG IMG_4975.JPG IMG_5093.JPG IMG_5094.JPG IMG_5095.JPG
     
  17. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Jul 16, 2017

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    eugeneandresson and ConElPueblo like this.
  18. gemini4 Hoarder Of Speed et alia Jul 16, 2017

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    You mean I can monetize Bill's pics? Gonna start deleting for sure:D
     
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  19. Bill Sohne Bill @ ΩF Staff Member Jul 16, 2017

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  20. micampe Jul 16, 2017

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    Every time that link gets shared I read it again, it’s like a Sherlock Holmes novel.
     
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