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  1. RSterling Jun 5, 2015

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    I was on holiday last month in Zurich (picked up my PO 42mm 8500) and saw this collection of Omegas at a second-hand store. Sorry I didn't grab more pics!

    [​IMG]
     
  2. CdnWatchDoc Jun 5, 2015

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    Wow! Directions please! or give me coordinates to feed into Google maps....::love::
     
  3. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Jun 5, 2015

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    There are plenty of nice vintage watches available in Zurich, but they are invariably quite expensive.
     
  4. RSterling Jun 6, 2015

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    I don't know the city well enough to tell you! It was in a little gathering of black-colored kiosks set up in a plaza near the river, sort of on the edge of a busier shopping district. If I can find a better descriptor, I'll post it.
     
  5. Thy Jun 6, 2015

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    I m interested also
     
  6. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Jun 6, 2015

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  7. Tiny Iota Could potentially be the Official OF Stalker ™ Jun 6, 2015

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    I noticed the exact same thing when I was there last week. All the little independent places where you'd think you might find a hidden gem were very pricey. The FS forum is the way to go!
     
  8. RSterling Jun 6, 2015

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  9. lillatroll Jun 6, 2015

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    He is asking 8400 gbp for a big blue 120. Now I know he has to make a profit and I know he has overheads to meet, but bloody hell, greedy bugger.
     
  10. Stewart H Honorary NJ Resident Jun 6, 2015

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  11. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Jun 6, 2015

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    Let's be clear about something: Baumgartner is generally not out of step with other Zurich vintage dealers. It's one of the most expensive cities in the world (which is shame, as it's so nice), the Franc is strong, and many of the tourists have serious money.

    I actually bought a V&C from him many years ago, but that was before the market soared into bubble territory.
     
  12. Thy Jun 6, 2015

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  13. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Jun 6, 2015

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    Thy –

    What do the Davidoff brothers of Geneve have to do with the Zurich dealer under discussion?
     
  14. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Jun 8, 2015

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    For the benefit of other members, "Thy", in his post above, was in no way referring to Baumgartner, the dealer in Zurich who has been the topic of this thread.
     
  15. lwong Jun 8, 2015

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    Well that went sideways. On the upside, it sounds like a "True amateur" label may be in the coming. ;)
     
  16. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Jun 8, 2015

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    I appreciate that some members, such as "Thy", aren't fluent in English. My problem is that he made no effort to clarify on this thread – even after I had contacted him privately.
     
  17. Thy Jun 9, 2015

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    Bonjour,
    je vais répondre en français. Peut être me ferais je mieux comprendre.
    Sans le moindre esprit de polémique.
    Oui mon anglais n'est pas parfait. Et oui je suis un vrai amateur.
    Je possède une trentaine de montres, dont la moitiés sont des Omega.
    La plus ancienne des mes Omega est un calibre 19 de 1894 dont le n° de série est 1.111. XXX
    Je possède également une Brandt, le nom avant Omega.
    Sur ce forum avec le même pseudo et le même avatar j'ai plus de 1200 post.
    -http://forum.horlogerie-suisse.com/
    J'ai fait un parallèle entre vendeurs/commerçants en disant que le premier n'était pas le seul "à vendre cher".
    Je n'ai pas vérifié les prix moi même, mais lu dans le post.
    Certains prix de montres ne se justifient pas, la bonne question à se poser est pourquoi ces prix?
    Parce qu'il y a des acheteurs, mais alors pourquoi payent-ils ces prix non justifiés?
    Méconnaissance? Blanchiment? Et là le vrai amateur est perdant.
    Dans le même ordre d'idée, je suis amateur de voitures anciennes.
    On voit dans ce secteur aujourd'hui le même phénomène que pour les montres.
    Un bus VW produit à grande échelle, vaut il réellement le prix ou plus qu'une Porsche 356?
    Je peux payer plus cher un modèle spécial si le prix est justifié.
    Si le prix ne se justifie pas, je préfère ne pas l'acheter...
    Encore une fois, sans esprit de polémique.
    Thy
     
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  18. Tony C. Ωf Jury member Jun 9, 2015

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    Bonjour Thy,

    J'utilise des logiciels de traduction de Google, donc veuillez excuser les fautes.

    Tout d'abord, Merci pour votre tentative de clarifier. Je comprends votre point que prix élevé montre vintage ne se limitent pas à un revendeur, une ville, ou même en Suisse, je pense que vous pouvez être confus de deux questions distinctes.

    Je suis d'accord qu'il y a des bulles sur les marchés de montre et voiture vintage. Mais les concessionnaires ne sont pas responsables de la hausse des prix – c'est les collectionneurs qui croient à tort que les valeurs vont continuer d'augmenter, ou ont tellement d'argent qu'ils ne sont pas critiques des prix.

    C'est, certes, vrai que certains concessionnaires sont plus équitables dans leurs prix que d'autres et que certains sont plus honnêtes dans la représentation des montres que d'autres. Ce sont des points mérite d'être discuté, mais le concessionnaire qui a été l'objet initial de ce post est, à mon sens, assez typique des concessionnaires suisses en termes de prix et honnête dans sa représentation de ses montres.

    Cela fait partie de la raison pour laquelle j'ai pris l'exception à votre précédent post, car vous sembliez être ce qui implique par ailleurs. Si vous croyez qu'un revendeur particulier est prix montres "hors ligne", comme on dit en anglais, ou est déformer montres, alors n'hésitez pas à commencer un nouveau thread, et ces revendications peuvent être discutées.

    J'espère que vous pouvez voir pourquoi votre premier post sur ce fil pourrait avoir causé une certaine confusion. Dans le même temps, cependant, vous êtes invités à contribuer à ce forum, et comme nous sommes tous les « amateurs » dans un certain sens, vos contributions ont certainement le potentiel pour être utile.

    Enfin, en ce qui concerne votre analogie VW, je ne partage pas. Ce que je veux dire, c'est que, au moins sur le marché actuel, un bus VW classique (dans certaines conditions et configurations, etc.) est perçu comme ayant une valeur très élevée. C'est le marché parlant, tout comme la montre vintage marché parle.

    Toutefois, je suis favorable à votre réaction, comme, pour utiliser un seul exemple, il y a beaucoup de montres qui coûte une fraction de nombreux modèles de Rolex qui ont une plus grande valeur pour moi. En d'autres termes, il y a beaucoup d'exemples des montres vintage qui je crois sont, en un sens, surévaluées. Mais le fait demeure que, dans le cadre du courant (sans doute la "surchauffé"), ces valeurs de marché est valide.

    Enfin, si vous êtes en faisant valoir qu'une Porsche 356 sera évalué plus fortement dans un marché d'avenir, vous pouvez bien avoir raison. Mais, encore une fois, pour utiliser qu'un seul exemple, je crois aussi qu'une petite ferme productive sera plus utile qu'un appartement de plusieurs millions de dollars à Londres ou à New York à l'avenir, et qu'une once d'or vaudra beaucoup de fois plus que la c'est actuellement une valeur de 1200 $.

    Cordialement,

    Tony C.




    Hello Thy,

    I am using Google translation software, so please forgive any mistakes.

    First, thank you for your attempt to clarify. While I understand your point that high vintage watch prices are not confined to one dealer, one city, or even to Switzerland, I think that you may be confusing two separate issues.

    I agree that there are bubbles in the vintage watch and car markets. But dealers are not responsible for the high prices – it is the collectors who mistakenly believe that the values will continue to rise, or have so much money that they are not critical of prices.

    It is, of course, true that some dealers are more fair in their pricing than others, and that some are more honest in the representation of the watches than others. These are points worth discussing, but the dealer that was the original subject of this post is, to my mind, fairly typical of Swiss dealers in terms of pricing, and honest in his representation of his watches.

    That is part of the reason why I took exception to your earlier post, as you seemed to be implying otherwise. If you believe that a particular dealer is pricing watches "out of line", as we say in English, or is misrepresenting watches, then feel free to start a new thread, and those claims can be discussed.

    Hopefully you can see why your initial post on this thread might have caused some confusion. At the same time, though, you are welcome to contribute to this forum, and as we are all "amateurs" in some sense, your contributions certainly have the potential to be helpful.

    Finally, with regard to your VW analogy, I do not agree. What I mean is that, at least in the current market, a classic VW bus (in certain condition and configurations, etc.) is perceived as having very high value. That is the market speaking, just as the vintage watch market speaks.

    I am, however, sympathetic to your reaction, as, to use just one example, there are many watches that cost a fraction of many Rolex models that have greater value to me. In other words there are many examples of vintage watches that I believe are, in a sense, overvalued. But the fact remains that within the context of the current (arguably "overheated") market those values are valid.

    Finally, if you are arguing that a Porsche 356 will be more highly valued in a future market, you may well be correct. But, again, to use just one example, I also believe that a small, productive farm will be more valuable than a multi-million dollar apartment in London or New York in the future, and that one ounce of gold will be worth many times more than the $1200 it is currently worth.

    Regards,

    Tony C.
     
  19. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Jun 9, 2015

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    Tried google translate and I think I get what you mean, there's some extreme pricing around on pieces that simply aren't rare or special enough and I think part of it is there's a class of collector that is cut off from communities and other collectors and they see things like CK2913s and 105.003s as very rare watches. They're too busy to look and hunt and learn and just want to cut a cheque to someone they perceive as trustworthy.

    One particular long time vintage Omega collector @Bill Sohne has a habit of signing off his posts with "Good Hunting", which is exactly what makes this all so much fun, the hunt and the chase. Cutting a cheque doesn't bring the same enjoyment to me or to many collectors but I guess to the guys these dealers market to its how they do things.
     
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  20. lwong Jun 9, 2015

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    At the risk of sidetracking the thread, I do actually think dealers are directly responsible for the current high pricing (is it a bubble? these days I'm not so sure). If you finesse it then yes, it's some dealers in particular, maybe even some categories of dealers if you're willing (or able) to group them together. But I imagine the nett result would be that other dealers, being part of the same community, would eventually raise their prices as well to avoid being shortchanged on their merchandise. Whereas in the private collector circles (e.g. sales forums on OF, or on OTD), there is now a growing disjunct between what individuals are asking for the same pieces which dealers are offering.

    But that is just my personal view, there are of course some good dealers out there who still try to keep the magic alive, and I wouldn't die in a ditch debating who is at fault. The reality is what matters, and that is asking prices are going up and grail watches are getting further out of reach. That is a perennial issue in watchcollecting, but when I started a few (short) years back I don't recall ridiculous asks being as commonplace as they are now.