Silver Trench Watch - What can you tell me?

Engee · Apr 21, 2020

Hello all

I picked up this broken watch purely on the basis that it was attractive, .925 silver and cheap enough for me not to worry if it's a dud.

It's a hinge-back trench watch. What I have learned is that it was, like many thousands of similar watches, sent from the Swiss manufacturer to the UK to be hallmarked through a sponsor called Stockwell and Co. who had a very successful business doing this. The GS is their sponsor's mark. (Stands for George Stockwell).

The piece was assayed in Glasgow, the top left mark indicates it was imported rather than made in the UK, and is the Glasgow mark for imported items.

The year mark puts it as having been hallmarked in 1929. It's possible that it was made a little earlier but I doubt it and the style looks about right for the age.

I've never heard of Black Spot and couldn't find anything searching google about them but I suspect it was a brand made for an English speaking market.

I have a few questions that hopefully people here may be able to answer.

I assume the "6693" and "A5M" indicate model numbers of some sort. Can anyone tell me more about this?

The second hand is missing. What would be the best way to source a suitable replacement, do you think? find one and send it with the watch to the watchmaker, or let the watchmaker source one?

The watch is not running. Pulling out the crown allows you to adjust the hands but it's a little fiddly to pull out. Also, the movement rotates slightly when you wiggle the crown - presumably this means the movement is not properly seated and screwed into place.

Lastly, it's not possible to wind the watch - there's no rotation of the crown if one tries to wind normally, but if one reverses the wind, i.e. winds backwards there's a nice solid ratchet action.

With all that information, is this a relatively easy fix (is it possible to answer that question without taking it apart?) or have I bought one of those "right-twice-a-day" watches?

I'd love to know your thoughts.

Thank you.

Professor · Apr 21, 2020

Well the balance spring is certainly messed up. The movement isn't visibly crusted up as far as I can see. I'm sure cleaning and oiling are the first steps.
The main spring is likely just wound tight and stays that way because the messed up balance spring won't allow the balance wheel to cycle at all.
If you think its worth a proper servicing the balance spring, if not kinked too badly or broken might be salvageable or a replacement available.
If a proper second hand is not readily available perhaps you can find one down the road.

Waltesefalcon · Apr 23, 2020

In Treasure Island the black spot meant that the pirates had found Billy Bones guilty and will be killed.

JwRosenthal · Apr 23, 2020

I’m no expert on these but it looks to be a 7 jewel movement- not very high grade. The dial nice and case is clean so if you can find a suitable donor movement, it may be better to swap a working movement and have that get the CLA.
Perhaps @Canuck can lend his eyes as to what type of movement it is and what would be a suitable swap

Engee · Apr 23, 2020

Waltesefalcon
In Treasure Island the black spot meant that the pirates had found Billy Bones guilty and will be killed.

Who, the pirates or Billy Bones? The future of this watch relies on your answer!

Engee · Apr 24, 2020

JwRosenthal
I’m no expert on these but it looks to be a 7 jewel movement- not very high grade. The dial nice and case is clean so if you can find a suitable donor movement, it may be better to swap a working movement and have that get the CLA.
Perhaps @Canuck can lend his eyes as to what type of movement it is and what would be a suitable swap

Thank you. Yes, it was the attractiveness and cleanness of the case and dial that made me decide to take a punt with this piece.

If a working donor movement is relatively easy to come by I guess a basic service and clean is going to be cheaper than trying to source the bits I need. What would be the essential pieces of info I need to check if the donor is going to fit?

Also, ‘scuse my ignorance but what does CLA stand for?

Waltesefalcon · Apr 24, 2020

Engee
Who, the pirates or Billy Bones? The future of this watch relies on your answer!

Billy Bones. It's been ages since I read the book but his death is what gets the story rolling.

JwRosenthal · Apr 24, 2020

Engee
Thank you. Yes, it was the attractiveness and cleanness of the case and dial that made me decide to take a punt with this piece.

If a working donor movement is relatively easy to come by I guess a basic service and clean is going to be cheaper than trying to source the bits I need. What would be the essential pieces of info I need to check if the donor is going to fit?

Also, ‘scuse my ignorance but what does CLA stand for?

Clean Lubricate Adjust.

Movements from this era were a hold-over of the pocket watch era where movements were made to standard sizes (for these little wrist watches they were ladies pocket watches) then fitted to cases (you were able to mix & match a bit). To an educated eye, the design on the bridge and layout of the movement should give an idea of who made it and then what would work as a transplant.
I Had a similar watch from around the same time period that had a 7 jewel movement (which ran beautifully when I got it- then I dropped it). With the assistance of @Canuck - I was able to source a running replacement movement from a pocket watch that was actually a much higher quality. I took both the wrist watch and pocket watch (I got from eBay) to my watchmaker and it was a drop in replacement (after he did a CLA).

Engee · Apr 24, 2020

JwRosenthal
Clean Lubricate Adjust.

Movements from this era were a hold-over of the pocket watch era where movements were made to standard sizes (for these little wrist watches they were ladies pocket watches) then fitted to cases (you were able to mix & match a bit). To an educated eye, the design on the bridge and layout of the movement should give an idea of who made it and then what would work as a transplant.
I Had a similar watch from around the same time period that had a 7 jewel movement (which ran beautifully when I got it- then I dropped it). With the assistance of @Canuck - I was able to source a running replacement movement from a pocket watch that was actually a much higher quality. I took both the wrist watch and pocket watch (I got from eBay) to my watchmaker and it was a drop in replacement (after he did a CLA).

Sounds like a plan. I've been quoted £140 for a service on this which doesn't seem worth it.

Professor · Apr 24, 2020

I suspect the messed up balance spring is all that will need to be replaced.
You might check some Russian Dealers. They seem to have acquired a lot of WW1 era British trench watches at some point, possibly surplus sent as lend lease in WW2.

If I remember correctly the Black Spot was also an ordnance marking found on some 19th century ammunition or equipment crates. Not sure of the significance. Red and Green dots were also used.

JwRosenthal · Apr 24, 2020

Engee
Sounds like a plan. I've been quoted £140 for a service on this which doesn't seem worth it.

That’s actually not bad for a service if that includes straitening out the balance issues- but that cost usually doesn’t include parts.

It’s the downside- reality of this hobby- we get a neat watch for cheap- then we realize that we have to spend real money to get it running properly. I have learned to factor in the cost of service to any watch I buy- regardless if it’s “running” or not, if it hasn’t been touched by a watchmaker in the last 10 years (or even it is sold as “serviced” you don’t know who serviced it or what they did unless they provided documentation).
Thinking of a watch in terms of purchase price + service/parts changes how eager I am when I see a good deal. I have passed on many neat watches that I knew just wouldn’t be worth the cost of getting it back up to snuff. On the flip side, I have spend $$$$ on parts and service for watches that are not “worth” a fraction of what I have into them- but I liked the watch enough to want to go the distance. This is not a rational hobby, if you like something enough, you don’t think about the cost. If you are concerned with cost, then you need to weigh the risk factors before you buy.

Engee · Apr 24, 2020

JwRosenthal
That’s actually not bad for a service if that includes straitening out the balance issues- but that cost usually doesn’t include parts.

It’s the downside- reality of this hobby- we get a neat watch for cheap- then we realize that we have to spend real money to get it running properly. I have learned to factor in the cost of service to any watch I buy- regardless if it’s “running” or not, if it hasn’t been touched by a watchmaker in the last 10 years (or even it is sold as “serviced” you don’t know who serviced it or what they did unless they provided documentation).
Thinking of a watch in terms of purchase price + service/parts changes how eager I am when I see a good deal. I have passed on many neat watches that I knew just wouldn’t be worth the cost of getting it back up to snuff. On the flip side, I have spend $$$$ on parts and service for watches that are not “worth” a fraction of what I have into them- but I liked the watch enough to want to go the distance. This is not a rational hobby, if you like something enough, you don’t think about the cost. If you are concerned with cost, then you need to weigh the risk factors before you buy.

I did expect to pay for a service - as you, I also factor it into the cost. I use a couple of guys - one for CLA on relatively cheap watches, which usually costs me under £100, and I send away "good" watches to another guy who charges around £175 plus parts. In this case it was the cheaper guy I asked to quote and was expecting it to come in around £100 plus parts hence my feeling he was a bit steep.

That said, I think you are right. I like this watch and want to keep it so it's worth getting it into working order. If I were to sell it on I'd just sell it as is and hope to get my money back.

The question I'm just pondering is whether to just hand it over to my guy to sort it out, or to see if I can save a few quid by finding a donor to drop in. It seems that there are plenty of suitable donors around, so perhaps it's just a question of asking around.

Canuck · Apr 24, 2020

Finding a donor will not likely be as easy as you seem to think it might be. Remember that a donor movement must accommodate the dial of your watch. That means the dial feet must fit the movement exactly, and the location for the seconds hand must be in the right place. You might have an easier time finding a complete movement with its dial intact, to replace the movement and dial. But then you’d probably have to accept that you would have different markings on the dial. If you would pull the dial and let us see the dial side of the movement, it might be possible to identify the maker and calibre of the movement.

Engee · Apr 24, 2020

Canuck
Finding a donor will not likely be as easy as you seem to think it might be. Remember that a donor movement must accommodate the dial of your watch. That means the dial feet must fit the movement exactly, and the location for the seconds hand must be in the right place. You might have an easier time finding a complete movement with its dial intact, to replace the movement and dial. But then you’d probably have to accept that you would have different markings on the dial. If you would pull the dial and let us see the dial side of the movement, it might be possible to identify the maker and calibre of the movement.

Part of the appeal is the dial, but most of it is the case, so I'll consider that.

If you can tell me what I need to do to remove the movement from the case (Which screws to unscrew and how I release the crown) I'll have a go at showing you the dial side of the movement.

Canuck · Apr 24, 2020

Maybe before you get involved attempting something you clearly have no experience at, you should ask the two watchmakers you’ve shown it to if they took note of the movement maker and calibre. Once the movement is out of the case, it’s a whole other challenge to get the dial off. OR, just take it to the shop of your preference, and have them do the repair.

Engee · Apr 24, 2020

Canuck
Maybe before you get involved attempting something you clearly have no experience at, you should ask the two watchmakers you’ve shown it to if they took note of the movement maker and calibre. Once the movement is out of the case, it’s a whole other challenge to get the dial off. OR, just take it to the shop of your preference, and have them do the repair.

I haven't shown it to anyone yet - I've just asked one for a quote and sent them the same pictures as on this thread.

JwRosenthal · Apr 24, 2020

Engee
I haven't shown it to anyone yet - I've just asked one for a quote and sent them the same pictures as on this thread.

I like to think of myself as a little watch savvy but pulling hands and a dial (let alone an enameled dial) is beyond my comfort zone. I would take it to your guy and as @Canuck suggested, let him take a look and see how complex the repair would be. The hands/dial are where it’s at on that watch, not worth losing them. If he says the balance is screwed and parts are unavailable to him, then going the donor route would be the next step.
I think once you rip off the bandaid and pay for the repair and throw a nice strap on that- you’ll forget any cost involved as you stare at it on your wrist.

Canuck · Apr 24, 2020

In one post, you indicated that you had two quotes, so I assumed you had shown the watch to two people. Speaking personally, I NEVER quote on a job I haven’t seen. I think you will find that neither quote will be realistic, considering the state of the hairspring!

Engee · Apr 24, 2020

Canuck
In one post, you indicated that you had two quotes, so I assumed you had shown the watch to two people. Speaking personally, I NEVER quote on a job I haven’t seen. I think you will find that neither quote will be realistic, considering the state of the hairspring!

Perhaps I wasn’t being clear. I give watches to two different guys, one does cheap clean up / basic service jobs for me, the other I send better watches to if I’m concerned that the job needs to be done by someone who really knows what they are doing. In this case I sent pictures to the first guy only. I have since sent pictures to the other guy as well but he told me it wasn’t a job he was interested in - basically thought it would be too much pain for what the job was worth.

Larry S · Apr 24, 2020

To be honest, I’d predict that the shop I use, who love working on old pocket watches, could sort this for about $250 -$500 depending on whats needed. Just a guess. Its a great looking piece.

Silver Trench Watch - What can you tell me?

Engee

Professor

Waltesefalcon

JwRosenthal

Engee

Engee

Waltesefalcon

JwRosenthal

Engee

Professor

JwRosenthal

Engee

Canuck

Engee

Canuck

Engee

JwRosenthal

Canuck

Engee

Larry S

Similar threads

What can you tell me about this Omega? I’ve got no idea, so hit me!

What Can You Tell Me about this Omega Ref 2181

Picked up a vintage sterling silver trench watch… Doxa?

Longines 12L - what can you say?

What can you tell me about this box?

What can you tell me about this Seamaster De Ville Daydate?