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Should we include timegrapher pictures when selling a watch?

  1. GuiltyBoomerang Nov 1, 2016

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    I have noticed that many watches, especially those that are not serviced, are listed as in 'working condition' or 'keeping time.' Those that are serviced sometimes come with timegrapher pictures to prove that it is, or receipt copies if available.

    As I have a timegrapher and am trimming down my collection, would it be appropriate to have these pictures when I list the non-serviced ones? Out of honesty, I feel like there is a fine line between saying "the watch is in working condition and will need a service to get the best out of it" and "the watch is running; however it is losing 4 minutes a day, so a service is highly recommeded."
     
  2. ulackfocus Nov 1, 2016

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    Can't hurt to include one, but not necessary in most instances.
     
    GuiltyBoomerang likes this.
  3. wsfarrell Nov 1, 2016

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    I think Timegrapher results are a good idea. Timing can be adjusted fairly easily if you're willing to open your watch. Amplitude and beat error are not so easy to adjust. High amplitude and low beat error are, to me anyway, reassuring signs in a watch I'm considering.
     
    Lonestar likes this.
  4. Deafboy His Holiness Puer Surdus Nov 1, 2016

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    Also, positional variations in rate and amplitudes reveals issues with imbalance, friction, wear,... I doubt most people with non-serviced watches would be willing to show any of these results.
     
  5. cicindela Steve @ ΩF Staff Member Nov 1, 2016

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    You are welcome to include ANY information you wish when selling a watch. However this is not a standard or requirement in the watches for sale forums. There are specific requirements listed at the top of the forums. We will not be imposing or recommending any other editions at this time. The use of timing graphs should be done with professional quality machines and by trained individuals. Both sellers and buyers are advised to use caution in dispensing and analyzing such data.

    Yellow.jpg
     
    marturx, Traveler, JohnSteed and 3 others like this.
  6. GuiltyBoomerang Nov 1, 2016

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  7. François Pépin Nov 1, 2016

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    It could be a good idea. But only if both the seller and the buyer know how to read the results. First the seller would have to know the correct lift angle of the movement!

    Concerning non recently serviced watches, I am wondering what timegrapher results could tell exactly to the potential buyer. Well, they could show that a service is in order, or that the watch is working fine. But it is not because it is working fine that there are still oil where it is necessary - I think Al explaned that clearly. And it is not because a watch has some issues, such as a low amplitude, that it would not be a very nice watch after a regular service.

    I am afraid timegrapher results would often scare people when considering buying a watch. I think it would be at least usefull to join some comments and when possible explanations of the results.
     
  8. cicindela Steve @ ΩF Staff Member Nov 1, 2016

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    Sorry, but threads are closed for specific problem issues. They may not be closed by request.
    However your request that others not clutter up the thread and confuse its purpose should be duly noted by all.

     
  9. STANDY schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collector Nov 2, 2016

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    Unless its a watchmaker I am not interested in seeing timegraph readings.

    Service records yes
     
  10. Deafboy His Holiness Puer Surdus Nov 2, 2016

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    Not too sure I understand the logic of your statement. It's not difficult to take a timegrapher reading. It is like saying "I am not interested in seeing pictures unless done by a professional photographer".
     
  11. STANDY schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collector Nov 2, 2016

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    Don't want to see a timegraph of a watch that hasn't been serviced for 10 years that someone has taken on a $25 eBay machine. All to just say it's running well.
     
    Larry S likes this.
  12. GuiltyBoomerang Nov 2, 2016

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    What's probably more difficult is having the patience to let the movement settle for a full 24 hours and then take another reading. Also, I would assume, taking positional readings based on the movement. And, in my amateur mind, setting the right degree value to check if results are really that great (or not.)
     
  13. François Pépin Nov 2, 2016

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    Few remarks:

    - it is not difficult to take results on a timegrapher... But no so easy. You have to have a minimum knowledge.

    - it is harder to understand correctly the results! Well, some people do that for a living...

    - timegrapher results are not so usefull if the watch has not been serviced recently and if you cannot see in person the movement.

    - I really think most amateurs using a timegrapher or just seing some results do not fully understand what it is going on. I had serviced a lot of watches before I got a timegrapher, but I had to start from new at that point. I am absolutly not a professional, but I can say that I have learnt a lot in order to use correctly the timegrapher and to correct issues it showed. And I am still improving.

    - but if the movement has recently been serviced or is working good, I would be glad to have correctly taken timegrapher results when buying a watch. Would never be mandatory though.
     
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  14. François Pépin Nov 2, 2016

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    True. Actually, that would be the minimum requirements so that the results are usefull.

    Most often, on the Internet, you see amateurs showing one ligne for one position (dial up) at full wind without the correct lift angle. Not so usefull if you want to know if the watch is working good before buying it...
     
  15. Larry S Color Commentator for the Hyperbole. Nov 2, 2016

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    I keep the time graphs from the watches I have had serviced with the paperwork. Any watch I sell would include past service records. To me they are worthless if they don't come from a watchmaker.
     
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  16. dsio Ash @ ΩF Staff Member Nov 2, 2016

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    Thing is I've seen ratty and corroded movements get good results on a machine and excellent movements condition wise get poor results (due to needing a service) so it's not a great indicator of condition or quality especially when taken by an amateur.
     
  17. Lonestar insert Schwartz joke HERE Nov 2, 2016

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    Guilty as charged.

    However, when the timegrapher results are REALLY bad (whatever the lift angle that was - or wasn't used) you know there is something serious going on inside... I bought a couple of decent-looking watches on this forum whose movements were so battered that they required a lot more (cash injected in them) than the " basic service" they were advertised as being in need of. A timegrapher screen cap would have clearly shown crazy beat errors and totally inconsistent behaviours. Chances are I would have still purchased them anyway, but cheaper... and at least I would have braced for the final bill to get them to proper running condition.

    Timegraphers screencaps aren't the alpha and the omega, but they are a decent proxy, which help define the "fine line between saying "the watch is in working condition and will need a service to get the best out of it" and "the watch is running; however it is losing 4 minutes a day, so a service is highly recommeded"".
     
  18. François Pépin Nov 2, 2016

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    Well, I did no want to be rude, and obviously people here have much more knowledge than the average watch amateur. I have been one of those amateur who did not fully understand timegrapher results, and maybe I still am!

    I understand your statement and I am not saying timegrapher results could not be usefull when buying a wach. But to me it seems a difficult thing to do in the concrete world.

    For instance, in your examples, who would have taken the resutlts? The seller. Why would he have a timegrapher at the first place? Is he able to take correctly the results? Could you trust those results? But my main point is that these results would not necessary have told you that costly parts would be needed. Without seeing the movement, and even without seeing each part when the movement has been taken apart and cleaned, it is hard to diagnose issues. Bad timegrapher results could only be caused by old oils and dirt, and a regular service could be enough - without any part to change.

    Maybe it is a question for watchmakers: could they diagnose issues only with timegrapher results - assuming they are correctly taken? I think the answer is most often no, but I will let them speak!
     
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  19. STANDY schizophrenic pizza orderer and watch collector Nov 2, 2016

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    We don't want too see a $800 watch unserviced become a $900 watch still unserviced with a good timegraph :cautious:
     
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  20. Lonestar insert Schwartz joke HERE Nov 2, 2016

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    For sure not - but I'd like to see $800 "might-beneficiate-from-a-service" watches go down to $400 when they show a really sh**ty timegrapher that says they need more than a clean-lube job...