Seiko Spring drive - just a fad, or a serious improvement?

Archer · Jun 30, 2016

spaniard
I think its the Japanese just being modest or cautious about what they state for their specs. I've seen it countless times in Japanese automotive as well (listing 280 hp when in fact has over 350 hp etc)

When I think of how the Japanese put up hp stats, I think of the Mazda RX8 fiasco...but anyway...

spaniard
Do we know that these watches need frequent servicing? I was under the impression that these watches could probably go 50 years without needing a service, at least for other Grand Seiko models. I would assume its also the same for the Spring Drive?

Not sure where you get this kind of information from - please post a source. The idea that these watches can go for 50 years without service is about as far fetched as you can get. Interesting that Seiko just announced that they are offering a free first service with the purchase of a GS model (mechanical or Spring Drive) if you buy from a boutique. Not much of a perk if it's something you (or your heirs) have to wait 50 years to collect on...

I know you have said you don't know a lot about movements, but seriously you should read up a bit before spending serious money on a watch. Here is an excerpt from a Spring Drive operating manual I found on line:

"The movement of this watch has a structure that consistent pressure is applied on its power-transmitting wheels. To ensure these parts work together properly, periodic inspection including cleaning of parts and movement, oiling, adjustment of accuracy, functional check and replacement of worn parts is needed. Inspection and adjustment by disassembly and cleaning (overhaul) within 3 to 4 years from the date of purchase is highly recommended for long-time use of your watch. According to use conditions, the oil retaining condition of your watch mechanical parts may deteriorate, abrasion of the parts may occur due to contamination of oil, which may ultimately lead the watch to stop."

Note that Seiko I believe recommends a 3 year service interval for their high beat GS models. Having serviced a 36,000 beat Grand Seiko I can tell you the forces involved are high, and wear is a problem on these watches...

spaniard
Ok that is correct and my understanding is wrong when you explain it like that. It does seem to a novice that it is a traditional mechanical watch with a quartz corrector.

I'm not a novice. 😀

Quartz watches can be powered by many means...through a traditional battery, using solar energy (EcoDrive), or using kinetic energy (Kinetic and Spring Drive). What they all share is a quartz crystal that is the only oscillator, and that makes them by definition a quartz watch. If you want to ignore that and call it something else, then knock yourself out.

Cheers, Al

spaniard · Jul 1, 2016

Archer
When I think of how the Japanese put up hp stats, I think of the Mazda RX8 fiasco...but anyway...

Lets pretend that never happened 😀 Still is a decent engine though.

Archer
Not sure where you get this kind of information from - please post a source. The idea that these watches can go for 50 years without service is about as far fetched as you can get. Interesting that Seiko just announced that they are offering a free first service with the purchase of a GS model (mechanical or Spring Drive) if you buy from a boutique. Not much of a perk if it's something you (or your heirs) have to wait 50 years to collect on...

Dont have a source on this at the moment its just what I've come across while reading about Seikos. But the gist of what I read and I believe this may have been for a 9F movement and might apply to some mechanical movements (I might be wrong on that last part) was that because the watch is a sealed design and the battery compartment is only accessible that the lubricants do not dry out due to this and also do not let any dust in, thus not needing a service for that long period of time. This again could be anecdotal but when I come across a source I'll make sure to post it up when I do see it.

Archer
I know you have said you don't know a lot about movements, but seriously you should read up a bit before spending serious money on a watch. Here is an excerpt from a Spring Drive operating manual I found on line:

"The movement of this watch has a structure that consistent pressure is applied on its power-transmitting wheels. To ensure these parts work together properly, periodic inspection including cleaning of parts and movement, oiling, adjustment of accuracy, functional check and replacement of worn parts is needed. Inspection and adjustment by disassembly and cleaning (overhaul) within 3 to 4 years from the date of purchase is highly recommended for long-time use of your watch. According to use conditions, the oil retaining condition of your watch mechanical parts may deteriorate, abrasion of the parts may occur due to contamination of oil, which may ultimately lead the watch to stop."

Note that Seiko I believe recommends a 3 year service interval for their high beat GS models. Having serviced a 36,000 beat Grand Seiko I can tell you the forces involved are high, and wear is a problem on these watches...

I had no idea these watches had such a short service interval. It's pretty shocking actually considering current speedmasters are ~5 to 7 years? (as per Omega boutique) Thinking about it though I does make sense being a high performance watch but I am shocked that from a Japanese engineering perspective that they did not/ were not able to make these watches efficient by reducing the amount of service needed.
I feel that usually the Japanese are really good at removing redundant aspects and making products more efficient of almost anything they make and do. It really is something to marvel at how they reduce unnecessary steps in almost all aspects of their society. (Mostly, just don't include bureaucracy and paperwork there)
What is the cost of a GS service if you know?

Archer
I'm not a novice. 😀

Quartz watches can be powered by many means...through a traditional battery, using solar energy (EcoDrive), or using kinetic energy (Kinetic and Spring Drive). What they all share is a quartz crystal that is the only oscillator, and that makes them by definition a quartz watch. If you want to ignore that and call it something else, then knock yourself out.

Cheers, Al

Absolutely not, that's why I appreciate your educating on this topic. Everyone will have their own opinion on this and see it one way or the other. Do I see it as a quartz watch? Yes and no, but that's just my take on the watch.

micampe · Jul 1, 2016

spaniard
the watch is a sealed design and the battery compartment is only accessible that the lubricants do not dry out due to this and also do not let any dust in

As opposed to other watches that have small holes to let some dust in and vent out the oils?

vinn2 · Jul 1, 2016

does watch oil dry out or evaporate? vinn

spaniard · Jul 2, 2016

micampe
As opposed to other watches that have small holes to let some dust in and vent out the oils?

I don't know what you mean by your condescending tone and I don't appreciate the smart ass-ness of it.

As I understand it the gear train and internal components are sealed and only the battery compartment is accessible when you remove the caseback not the internal components.

vinn2 · Jul 2, 2016

yes, the RX7/8 fiasco! an engineering mistake. only the inexperianced kids still like them. vinn

micampe · Jul 2, 2016

spaniard
I don't know what you mean by your condescending tone and I don't appreciate the smart ass-ness of it.

Not condescending, just sarcastic, and I was hoping it would make you think through your assertion.

spaniard
As I understand it the gear train and internal components are sealed and only the battery compartment is accessible when you remove the caseback not the internal components.

All watches are sealed. That's what it means to be water resistant.

I thought the point and ingenuity of spring drive was to not have a battery? Can you please point out the battery compartment in this picture?

Archer · Jul 2, 2016

vinn2
does watch oil dry out or evaporate? vinn

Yes, certainly. None of these took 50 years to dry out...

Cheers, Al

spaniard · Jul 2, 2016

micampe
Not condescending, just sarcastic, and I was hoping it would make you think through your assertion.

All watches are sealed. That's what it means to be water resistant.

I thought the point and ingenuity of spring drive was to not have a battery? Can you please point out the battery compartment in this picture?

Seriously again? And you say your not being a smart ass. It's obvious that SD does not have a battery. I also think your reading comprehension is pretty bad as I had mentioned I was talking about the 9F, I think you need to go back and get schooled and If you had bothered to find out rather than condescend again you would have realised that I was talking about the 9F movement which seems to have a sealed movement. Here it is bolded and higlighted so you may slowly read it in your own time and hopefully make sense of what I originally wrote but you decided to interpret so so wrongly.

spaniard
Dont have a source on this at the moment its just what I've come across while reading about Seikos. But the gist of what I read and I believe this may have been for a 9F movement and might apply to some mechanical movements (I might be wrong on that last part) was that because the watch is a sealed design and the battery compartment is only accessible that the lubricants do not dry out due to this and also do not let any dust in, thus not needing a service for that long period of time. This again could be anecdotal but when I come across a source I'll make sure to post it up when I do see it.

I never said that SD had a battery. Now I dont know if this applies to any other Grand Seiko watches or just the 9F. This was something that I was mentioning as a point of discussion. But it seems that some people here feel they need to condescend down to people to justify their existence.

The Super Sealed Cabin prevents dust entering the movement when the battery is changed and prolongs the life of the lubricating oils that ensure smooth operation of the gear train.

http://www.grand-seiko.com/movement/quartz.php

This is an old quote and I think Seiko removed this from their material

The rotor and gear train of caliber 9F are tightly sealed in a self-contained cabin. This guarantees the long lasting quality and precision of the movement by preventing dust entering when the case back is opened for battery replacement. This 'super sealed' cabin mechanism also increases the life of the lubricating oils that ensure the smooth operation of the gear train. Theoretically, additional lubrication is not needed for fifty years.

http://www.grand-seiko.com/manufacture/9f-quartz.html

arkstfan · Jul 2, 2016

Timekeeping is done by Quartz = quartz watch.
It's an interesting way to generate electricity though.

François Pépin · Jul 3, 2016

I think Acher clarifyed the debate. As long as as a watch has a quartz regulator, and considering the importance of the regulator in a watch, it is a quartz watch. Pretty simple actually!

But there are other issues to take into account, and one can like the combination of the mainspring, the accumulator and the quartz. I do not consider buying a springdrive but I like the continuous movement of the seconds wheel. On principal, every quartz watch has the frequency to permit that - but they usually do not. Why is that? Surely it would use much more electricity and empty the battery quicker, but there may be other reasons.

I guess the high speed of the seconds wheel has something to do with the service issues. I have read elsewhere (French speaking forum) that classic quartz watches require less services because (with other reasons) less forces and wear are involved with only one electric impulse and one move per sec. I guess it is very different in a spring drive. Am I wrong?

Anyway, I do not think Japonese engineers failed here. They just did what was possible with the system they chose. You cannot as well enjoy an El Primero without servicing very often - mainly because of the high frequency rate and the forces involved.

adi4 · Jul 3, 2016

Just to clarify regarding service, Seiko states in both the 9F and 9R (Spring Drive) user manuals that the recommended service interval is 3-4 years. Also, for the 9S auto movements, they recommend 2-3 years.

My personal opinion (purely personal opinion) is that they can go a little longer than stated as Seiko tends to be very conservative with their numbers. But I also don't believe any of the movements can honestly go 50 years without any wear and tear.

Keef Richards · Jun 13, 2019

I agree what was said about the quartz, however this watch has 416 parts and 50 Jewels.So it has a lot of mechanical parts and I would be more satisfied owning one of these watches over one with a battery inside.

Seiko Spring drive - just a fad, or a serious improvement?

Archer

spaniard

micampe

vinn2

spaniard

vinn2

micampe

Archer

spaniard

arkstfan

François Pépin

adi4

Keef Richards

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