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  1. Superpacker Apr 20, 2013

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    As I have been watching, and learning, I have noticed that some vintage Seamasters and SM Devilles have 17 jewels and other 24. I understand the basic purpose of jewels, buy why do some have 17 and others 24? Is one better than the other, increased value, etc? And is there a way to tell without opening it how many jewels a particular watch has? By the way, thanks for humoring newbie questions. This is a polite forum!
     
  2. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Apr 20, 2013

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    Some countries taxes automatic watch based on number of jewel, hence manufacturer responded accordingly depending on the market regulation. If I am not mistaken 17 is the 'border' number for the tax bracket differentiation.

    more jewels do not automatically corresponding to better quality movement IMO. after certain number, the others are more for decoration purpose. I know a watch who boasted 77 or even 100 jewels, but only 15 jewels really used for the movement, the rest just set there without function
     
  3. ulackfocus Apr 20, 2013

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    It has nothing to do with value as they're synthetic jewels. They're like bushings, only hard so they don't wear. They also reduce friction. The USA had an import tax for jewels and precious metal so many watch brands sent their movements to America to be put into US made cases made to their specs to save on that tariff. Any count above 17 jewels was taxed heavily so you'll see many US caliber versions have 17 jewels (and are marked unadjusted even though they were adjusted because there was a tax on that too). The best example is the Zenith El Primero - 31 jewels except for the American version (usually in a Movado) which had 17 jewels. The extra jewels were usually in the automatic winding system or some other extra function.

    More on jewels:

    http://www.watchtalkforums.info/forums/general-discussion-forum/14382.htm

    http://www.watchtalkforums.info/forums/general-discussion-forum/14627.htm


    The whole H-101 series:

    http://www.watchtalkforums.info/forums/general-discussion-forum/22496.htm
     
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  4. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Apr 20, 2013

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    Dennis, it looks like you are a serious professor in other forum and a bartender in here. ::confused2::
    I guess it has something to do with the incentive structure that dsio put for the moderators in this forum :p
     
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  5. ulackfocus Apr 20, 2013

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    Here, I don't have to teach much. The regulars are mostly serious collectors. I can be goofy much more, although I (and most others) answer plenty of questions and assist members vetting potential purchases.

    There, I still check out eBay listings and make recommendations like we do here, and I make just as many bad puns - but there are less brand and era focused members and more newer collectors.

    Different atmospheres, but both are fun.

    ..... and yes, both sites still have n00b 1 post putzes who don't include pictures in their thread but want their watches identified, authenticated, and given approximate valuations based on two sentences and a number they saw somewhere on the case. :cautious: I guess douchebags are everywhere. :rolleyes:
     
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  6. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Apr 20, 2013

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    Anyway thank you for your contribution here :thumbsup: . I learn alot from you and aother Mods. The noob you are talking about was me 6 months ago. While still far away from expert, I feel more confident in continuing my watch collection hobby.
     
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  7. ulackfocus Apr 20, 2013

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    You were never a douchebag though. That's important. ;)
     
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  8. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Apr 20, 2013

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    :)
     
  9. Superpacker Apr 20, 2013

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    I too hope my questions have not approached such a level as well, as I am even newer than Privateday7
     
  10. ulackfocus Apr 20, 2013

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    No, not at all. :)
     
  11. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Apr 20, 2013

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    There was an actual reason for the extra customs duty on watches over 17 jewels at that time. It was called government protectionism. Back in the 1920's, when these laws were enacted, there were many US watch manufacturers. Most did not make watches with more than 17 jewels, so many thought it made political and economic sense to protect them against foreign (read Swiss) competition.

    Between the closing of the last US watch manufacturing plant in 1969 (Hamilton), the rise of low-jewel count quartz watches in the 1980's and many years of inflation taking its toll, these customs laws are kind of an anachronism.

    These laws are still on the books and almost all modern watches are subject to them.
    gatorcpa
     
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  12. Privateday7 quotes Miss Universe Apr 20, 2013

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    That's perfect example on how most regulation could not catch up with the situation development.
     
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  13. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Apr 21, 2013

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    As note jewels act as the bearing surfaces for the pivots (shafts) of the wheels in a watch. They are not particularly valuable in themselves, but they do serve an important purpose. The synthetic ruby (corundum) is hard, smooth, and long lasting. Although jewels do wear, it's far more common to see worn bushing (steel or brass) where they are used in place of jewels.

    For example, here is a worn bushing in an ETA 7750 - this is an older 17 jewel version and is for the minute recorder runner:

    [​IMG]

    In this video, you can see how worn it is as it has a lot of side shake:



    I replaced it with this jewel:

    [​IMG]

    The Horia jewelling tool is the best tool for this job:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Now keep in mind this part only moves once per minute, and only when the chronograph is running, so it's not a part that sees a ton of motion, like in the main wheel train or in the automatic module. Fact is, jewels last much longer than bushings do, so if they are used where there is a heavy load, they are a sign of a better quality movement.

    Two examples of worn bushing in the automatic module of an ETA 2688 that was not jeweled:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    There was a time when there were "jewel wars" with manufacturers stating many jewels in the watch to give an impression of quality. However there are laws in place now that if you state a number of jewels on the movement, they must be functional jewels.

    Anyway, hope this help shed some light on what jewels do.

    Cheers, Al
     
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  14. pitpro Likes the game. Apr 21, 2013

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    Great post Al. Thanks
     
  15. MKelley Apr 21, 2013

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    Well said & I agree. I've learned more here than I could have imagined. I too am far from any kind of "expert", continuing to learn everyday. Not to mention, it's fun and interesting. Now if I could just find a money tree, my collection days would continue to prosper.:rolleyes:
     
  16. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Apr 23, 2013

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    So just to shed some light on the "non-functional" jewels that some watches had back in the day, I stumbled across some photos of a watch I serviced a while back that shows how some companies did this. This is a Tradition watch that was sold by Sears:

    [​IMG]

    Here is a shot of the movement:

    [​IMG]

    Now on the dial, the text is damaged but it says "23 jewels" and the same is seen on the wheel train bridge in the shot of the movement. But here is where the trickery is - remove the screws for the bridge, and you see that a plate has been added with 4 cap jewels for the wheel train:

    [​IMG]

    The thing is, these cap jewel do nothing, since the pivots on the wheels are no where near long enough to touch the cap jewels. As you can see below this plate this movement started life as a 17 jewel watch. Oddly enough, actually counting all the jewels in the watch, even counting the non-functional jewels, there were only 22!

    Cheers, Al
     
  17. X350 XJR Vintage Omega Aficionado Apr 23, 2013

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    And taken to the extreme a couple with 100 "jewels", of which I believe 83 were non functional.

    $T2eC16d,!)UE9s3wDc4+BRdZMSbFG!~~60_57.JPG 1129df100-14.jpg
     
  18. JFeirman Sep 18, 2021

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  19. JFeirman Sep 18, 2021

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    Hello All,
    I know this is a moldy oldy thread, but Archer's post about the cap jewel plate here hits the nail on the head.

    I am servicing for a friend a one Jewel EB 8800 pin lever in a Sheffield All Sport. It belonged to his wife's late father. What we are trying to is replace the main plate, train wheel bridge, and pallet bridge with the jewelled versions. We purchased these from a guy in Poland. Parts arrived quickly to the US and appear to be in fine shape.

    While assembling the train bridge, I noticed that the wheels under the capped jewel section of the bridge were a bit short, the pivots not quite reaching the holes in the jewels pressed into the bridge. These jewel are facing resevoir side down toward the cylindrical pivots on the wheels. The 3 cap plate sits on top. Is this to stabilize the train wheels? Seems odd. Were the pivots longer on the wheels of the 17 jewel EB 8800 that the main plate and train wheel bridge came from? SHould these jewels have been installed turned upside down with the flat faces toward the mainplate? Archer's post shows this dummy cap jewel plate over the train bridge with jewels facing the traditional way with resevoirs up to hold oil? yeah?

    Would it be best to get wheels with longer pivots if available, push the jewels down in their current orientation or flip the jewels over flat side down?

    Any experience or suggestions greatly appreciated. IMG_8077.JPG IMG_8078.JPG IMG_8079 (2).JPG IMG_8080 (2).jpg
     
    Edited Sep 18, 2021
  20. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Sep 18, 2021

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    The jewelled version likely used different wheels. If you have straight pivots like this:

    [​IMG]

    The two arrows show where the pivot ride on the flat underside of the jewel. With cap jewels, the wheels should have conical pivots like this:

    [​IMG]

    So the pivot rides only on the very tip against that cap jewel.

    If you don't have conical pivots, I would remove the one jewel and see if you can flip it the other way around, with the flat side down against the wheel - if that works flip them all. Just pay attention to the end shake - Horia tool would be ideal for this.

    Cheers, Al