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Rough dial
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Tony C.
· ·Ωf Jury memberIn my view, you have two choices: leave it as is (that would be my choice), or accept that it will be an obvious redial.
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DirtyDozen12
· ·Thanks, mystery donor!I agree with @Tony C., I would leave it as is. Any attempt to improve its appearance will almost certainly spoil it. In my view, it looks okay in its present state.
These dials were not originally made using ink. Rather, they used a galvanic process that involved a number of steps. Here is a basic explanation that I wrote a while ago:
A prepared brass blank receives a silver or gold plating. Then the text is printed onto the dial with a non-conductive material using a conventional pad. Next the black layer is applied. This layer does not cover the text due to its lack of conductivity. The dial is then cleaned. This leaves the black layer intact and removes the non-conductive coating to reveal the "gilt" text.
(Source: https://omegaforums.net/threads/gilt-dial-omegas.45730/#post-543033)
These dials were not originally made using ink. Rather, they used a galvanic process that involved a number of steps. Here is a basic explanation that I wrote a while ago:
A prepared brass blank receives a silver or gold plating. Then the text is printed onto the dial with a non-conductive material using a conventional pad. Next the black layer is applied. This layer does not cover the text due to its lack of conductivity. The dial is then cleaned. This leaves the black layer intact and removes the non-conductive coating to reveal the "gilt" text.
(Source: https://omegaforums.net/threads/gilt-dial-omegas.45730/#post-543033)
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DirtyDozen12
· ·Thanks, mystery donor!P.S. The process mentioned above provides an explanation for the silvery spotting that is visible on the dial. Deterioration of the black layer is exposing the silver layer underneath. Sort of a neat effect, I think.
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Larry S
· ·Color Commentator for the Hyperbole.Patina is heavy but even and interesting. Build it up as is.
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LesXL
·Agree with all the above feedbacks.
Heavy patina indeed, but hour markers are still quite visible keeping it's main purpose
Heavy patina indeed, but hour markers are still quite visible keeping it's main purpose
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Syrte
· ·MWR Tech Support DeptI have to suspect we’ve all had that newbie urge to make things look new— and ruined a watch in the process.
I even did that once when I was no longer a newbie, with a Longines Marine Nationale I had bought for a pittance but which had a dial with a greenish moisture patina I disliked.
I was initially happy with the cleaning performed by a very talented friend, I still think it looks pretty damn good in fact, but regretted it once I got a better example.
The clean dial still looks better than a redial IMHO, but those “improvements” cannot be reversed when you suddenly decide you’d rather keep the watch in its original state.
I even did that once when I was no longer a newbie, with a Longines Marine Nationale I had bought for a pittance but which had a dial with a greenish moisture patina I disliked.
I was initially happy with the cleaning performed by a very talented friend, I still think it looks pretty damn good in fact, but regretted it once I got a better example.
The clean dial still looks better than a redial IMHO, but those “improvements” cannot be reversed when you suddenly decide you’d rather keep the watch in its original state.
Edited:
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evansrc1
·Thanks for the input. I actually don't dislike the natural aging patina, it's the abrasions around and lack of definition of the numerals from scrubbing off the lume I'm less keen on.
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Syrte
· ·MWR Tech Support DeptThe problem is that once you start touching it, there will be a discrepancy between the places where it’s been altered and the rest of the dial.
Imagine someone even very talented (and that should be someone very experienced) touches up around the numerals, they will look like racoon eyes, so you’re going then to want to touch up everywhere.
But the outer border of the dial with the minute index cannot be touched as it is way too fine.
So there will always be a contrast between different areas which will give away the transformation.
You may think for a while you’re satisfied, until you buy a watch that’s in much better condition, and this one will stay in a drawer having lost its originality. (Which collectors value).
Maybe you can tell us more about yourself and what purposes you have with this watch?
Imagine someone even very talented (and that should be someone very experienced) touches up around the numerals, they will look like racoon eyes, so you’re going then to want to touch up everywhere.
But the outer border of the dial with the minute index cannot be touched as it is way too fine.
So there will always be a contrast between different areas which will give away the transformation.
You may think for a while you’re satisfied, until you buy a watch that’s in much better condition, and this one will stay in a drawer having lost its originality. (Which collectors value).
Maybe you can tell us more about yourself and what purposes you have with this watch?
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evansrc1
·Serial collector. Vintage movie posters, advertising/design posters, vintage bikes and more. So I know all about the people who buy something vintage and want it looking brand new. I actually like something looking it's age, but I don't like all patina.
Always had an interest in watches, but bought one new about 20 years ago which satisfied me. Now worth (to me) an obscene amount of money which made me less comfortable with it, and I’m going to sell, so I started looking again.
Have a nice Fleet Air Arm WWII Omega and a Smiths Antarctic as well as the ref 5483 in the other thread. Interest in those started when I lost out on a 5483 with a black military/expedition dial in an auction a while back. I always liked vintage Rolex Explorers, but wouldn’t get a Rolex now being attracted to the less obvious.
You posted something about the Longines models for expeditions that predate the Rolex and Smiths models. That’s what particularly interests me at the moment, but also have a broader interest in vintage Longines.
Bought a job lot of a few 33mm Longines, motivated mainly by the expedition style dial on the gold one in other thread, but also liked this dial and also got a functioning 5403 (I think) albeit with an incorrect crown and a redial that needs replacing.
Really like the Marine Nationale, thanks for sharing yours.
Always had an interest in watches, but bought one new about 20 years ago which satisfied me. Now worth (to me) an obscene amount of money which made me less comfortable with it, and I’m going to sell, so I started looking again.
Have a nice Fleet Air Arm WWII Omega and a Smiths Antarctic as well as the ref 5483 in the other thread. Interest in those started when I lost out on a 5483 with a black military/expedition dial in an auction a while back. I always liked vintage Rolex Explorers, but wouldn’t get a Rolex now being attracted to the less obvious.
You posted something about the Longines models for expeditions that predate the Rolex and Smiths models. That’s what particularly interests me at the moment, but also have a broader interest in vintage Longines.
Bought a job lot of a few 33mm Longines, motivated mainly by the expedition style dial on the gold one in other thread, but also liked this dial and also got a functioning 5403 (I think) albeit with an incorrect crown and a redial that needs replacing.
Really like the Marine Nationale, thanks for sharing yours.
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Syrte
· ·MWR Tech Support DeptThis watch would require significant work as it’s also missing a crown-and you’d have to find suitable replacement hands, that’s another subject.
But it seems you’re into this one in part for the sport of the project, if you’re prepared to destroy your dial and lose it entirely while attempting a restoration, although it’s always a pity, you will find below the best case scenario of a “sympathetic” restoration.
However that was performed by a consumate professional; and the watch below had fewer bare spots, and more even dial.
Yours would require an extremly light handed, almost impressionistic touch up between 9 and 10, and to the right side of numeral 5, in both cases leaving some of the bare spots in order to match the overall aspect of the dial.
You’d have to resist the urge to expand, and even then the most reasonable advice may be to leave it alone.
The dial below required two days and lots of tests- and again you’d have to be prepared to accept a bad outcome of completely destroying your dial. That’s the standard collectors use when making those decisions.
https://www.classicwatch.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=48
But it seems you’re into this one in part for the sport of the project, if you’re prepared to destroy your dial and lose it entirely while attempting a restoration, although it’s always a pity, you will find below the best case scenario of a “sympathetic” restoration.
However that was performed by a consumate professional; and the watch below had fewer bare spots, and more even dial.
Yours would require an extremly light handed, almost impressionistic touch up between 9 and 10, and to the right side of numeral 5, in both cases leaving some of the bare spots in order to match the overall aspect of the dial.
You’d have to resist the urge to expand, and even then the most reasonable advice may be to leave it alone.
The dial below required two days and lots of tests- and again you’d have to be prepared to accept a bad outcome of completely destroying your dial. That’s the standard collectors use when making those decisions.
https://www.classicwatch.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=48
Edited:
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evansrc1
·I agree with @Tony C., I would leave it as is. Any attempt to improve its appearance will almost certainly spoil it. In my view, it looks okay in its present state.
These dials were not originally made using ink. Rather, they used a galvanic process that involved a number of steps. Here is a basic explanation that I wrote a while ago:
A prepared brass blank receives a silver or gold plating. Then the text is printed onto the dial with a non-conductive material using a conventional pad. Next the black layer is applied. This layer does not cover the text due to its lack of conductivity. The dial is then cleaned. This leaves the black layer intact and removes the non-conductive coating to reveal the "gilt" text.
(Source: https://omegaforums.net/threads/gilt-dial-omegas.45730/#post-543033)
Thanks, that is interesting.
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evansrc1
·This watch would require significant work as it’s also missing a crown-and you’d have to find suitable replacement hands, that’s another subject.
But it seems you’re into this one in part for the sport of the project, if you’re prepared to destroy your dial and lose it entirely while attempting a restoration, although it’s always a pity, you will find below the best case scenario of a “sympathetic” restoration.
However that was performed by a consumate professional; and the watch below had fewer bare spots, and more even dial.
Yours would require an extremly light handed, almost impressionistic touch up between 9 and 10, and to the right side of numeral 5, in both cases leaving some of the bare spots in order to match the overall aspect of the dial.
You’d have to resist the urge to expand, and even then the most reasonable advice may be to leave it alone.
The dial below required two days and lots of tests- and again you’d have to be prepared to accept a bad outcome of completely destroying your dial. That’s the standard collectors use when making those decisions.
https://www.classicwatch.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=48
Thanks, that's helpful. Yes, I was thinking extremely delicate touch-up.
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evansrc1
·
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Syrte
· ·MWR Tech Support DeptFrom that one picture it’s hard to judge - but it seems you still have plenty of patina, and I completely agree with @Larry S it’s time to stop.
There are fragile layers of ageing varnish on there and if you try to rub or alter chemically there’s a big risk that entire chunks of the varnish will go.
And you will go straight from decent to disaster.
As indicated previously, what’s difficult in dial restoration is to draw the line about where to stop.
Very curious to see other pictures however.
There are fragile layers of ageing varnish on there and if you try to rub or alter chemically there’s a big risk that entire chunks of the varnish will go.
And you will go straight from decent to disaster.
As indicated previously, what’s difficult in dial restoration is to draw the line about where to stop.
Very curious to see other pictures however.
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sheepdoll
·I am once again in the midst of looking into this again. Will be more later.
The ink is probably oil based. Finley ground powders. For the high temperature work we had a mortar and pestle. The metals are highly toxic. Remove the led, and the selenium and cobalt is still left. I think yellow is a depleted uranium ore.
Romans used charcoal. By the middle ages and with mechanical printing an iron oxide called hematite was used. This is a black oxide found on mars and in your blood. Yes the middle age monks were writing with blood. Modern inks use this, makes them electrically conductive. Checks and currency can magnetize this to be read with scanners.
Oil can be anything. The salad oil in your kitchen. Olive oil. Give it enough time it becomes resin. Especially when exposed to light. These are just hydrocarbons.
Add sulfur and you get rubber. The latex plant does this naturally. Your hair also contains sulfur as well why it stinks when burned.
Then there is a drying agent. Pure alcohol works, as does naphtha and other really nasty things that evaporate quickly and create smog.
Other ingredients are used. The resins (dried oils) are photosensitive. So cyanide can be used in the wash.
Not anything you want to do in the Kitchen.
One of the hazmat chemicals in the containers what polluted the Baltimore harbor was used to create sheen in paint. (Ink and paint are basically the same thing.) Probably not as drinkable as tea. I think the big paint companies are pretty much bankrupt these days over such materials.
Lacquer is bug shit. Literally. It can also be the stuff you cough up and sneeze out aka spit. As in spit polish. (Stradivarius's secret varnish ingredient.) This gets put on in really thin coats. When used along with a water soluble backing it becomes a decal. Yes the thing used to decorate model planes cars and put flowers onto Barbie's cheeks.
Getting this wet causes de lamination.
The same processes are also used to create microchips. (grinding the nasty stuff down to the size of light waves) One has to do this in really really clean environments. And I mean clean.
Last I checked though one can get the inks and paints from auto parts stores as touch up paint. Not sure if this contains the UV sensitive drying agents. I still have some from years ago when you could get the oven set stuff from craft stores like Michael's and Been Franklin. Last I looked they did have UV set resin.
I will be posting more on this. At the moment the dials are on the other side of the room. I have not touched them yet. So probably good I waited decades to do something with them. There is the one from yesterday and the one I wreaked as well. Not to mention the chronograph ones.
Repaints never really bothered me. They will however always be repaints. And I found the one on the Tissot T12 to be less than satisfactory. I thought at the time, I can do better than that.
This is true of any collectable. Originality always outweighs restoration.
Otherwise we have Ben Franklin's axe. The one George Washington borrowed, And Abe Lincoln used. Same axe, it just had 6 handles and three heads by the time It went into the museum.
The ink is probably oil based. Finley ground powders. For the high temperature work we had a mortar and pestle. The metals are highly toxic. Remove the led, and the selenium and cobalt is still left. I think yellow is a depleted uranium ore.
Romans used charcoal. By the middle ages and with mechanical printing an iron oxide called hematite was used. This is a black oxide found on mars and in your blood. Yes the middle age monks were writing with blood. Modern inks use this, makes them electrically conductive. Checks and currency can magnetize this to be read with scanners.
Oil can be anything. The salad oil in your kitchen. Olive oil. Give it enough time it becomes resin. Especially when exposed to light. These are just hydrocarbons.
Add sulfur and you get rubber. The latex plant does this naturally. Your hair also contains sulfur as well why it stinks when burned.
Then there is a drying agent. Pure alcohol works, as does naphtha and other really nasty things that evaporate quickly and create smog.
Other ingredients are used. The resins (dried oils) are photosensitive. So cyanide can be used in the wash.
Not anything you want to do in the Kitchen.
One of the hazmat chemicals in the containers what polluted the Baltimore harbor was used to create sheen in paint. (Ink and paint are basically the same thing.) Probably not as drinkable as tea. I think the big paint companies are pretty much bankrupt these days over such materials.
Lacquer is bug shit. Literally. It can also be the stuff you cough up and sneeze out aka spit. As in spit polish. (Stradivarius's secret varnish ingredient.) This gets put on in really thin coats. When used along with a water soluble backing it becomes a decal. Yes the thing used to decorate model planes cars and put flowers onto Barbie's cheeks.
Getting this wet causes de lamination.
The same processes are also used to create microchips. (grinding the nasty stuff down to the size of light waves) One has to do this in really really clean environments. And I mean clean.
Last I checked though one can get the inks and paints from auto parts stores as touch up paint. Not sure if this contains the UV sensitive drying agents. I still have some from years ago when you could get the oven set stuff from craft stores like Michael's and Been Franklin. Last I looked they did have UV set resin.
I will be posting more on this. At the moment the dials are on the other side of the room. I have not touched them yet. So probably good I waited decades to do something with them. There is the one from yesterday and the one I wreaked as well. Not to mention the chronograph ones.
Repaints never really bothered me. They will however always be repaints. And I found the one on the Tissot T12 to be less than satisfactory. I thought at the time, I can do better than that.
This is true of any collectable. Originality always outweighs restoration.
Otherwise we have Ben Franklin's axe. The one George Washington borrowed, And Abe Lincoln used. Same axe, it just had 6 handles and three heads by the time It went into the museum.
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evansrc1
·From that one picture it’s hard to judge - but it seems you still have plenty of patina, and I completely agree with @Larry S it’s time to stop.
There are fragile layers of ageing varnish on there and if you try to rub or alter chemically there’s a big risk that entire chunks of the varnish will go.
And you will go straight from decent to disaster.
As indicated previously, what’s difficult in dial restoration is to draw the line about where to stop.
Very curious to see other pictures however.
First attempt touching in with enamel paint didn't work and cleaning it off removed more of the loose surface that had been scrubbed before I got it.
I then tried permanent marker ink with different dilutions with alcohol.
This works quite well I think, but the dilution needs to be right, too much and it can take a while to evaporate and dries matt. Spread thinly and drying quickly it dries to the right glossiness.
I can lift the ink off and reveal more patina with brush with a little alcohol, though I've failed trying that already because I did looking too close, and it needs to be done seeing the wider picture.
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Syrte
· ·MWR Tech Support DeptQuite interesting, and the last picture looks supergood in my opinion. The patina is still present and quite even, yet somehow unobtrusive.
i’m not sure exactly what you’re hoping to achieve beyond this I think you already got the best result you could possibly hope for. congratulations.
i’m not sure exactly what you’re hoping to achieve beyond this I think you already got the best result you could possibly hope for. congratulations.
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Syrte
· ·MWR Tech Support DeptPS looking at this again with the benefit of daylight, I have to say I’m impressed with the result, it really looks great.
Kudos to you for exploring and finding the right kind of “paint” and applying it so well.
I really do think you should leave the dial as it is now.
Keep us posted as you make progress on the project!
Kudos to you for exploring and finding the right kind of “paint” and applying it so well.
I really do think you should leave the dial as it is now.
Keep us posted as you make progress on the project!
