For some time,I have been considering buying my first vintage watch. I recently found this watch and think it is very beautiful. I have been doing some research to establish its authenticity, but I am fairly certain that is not authentic, that in fact, it is completely redialed, though very nicely done. Ref#2445-1, caliber 28.10 RA SC. I can’t find another with this dial, and people have told me that there is no authentic dial like this, that it is repainted. I came here to get your expert opinions. The price is $1150

 

Redial

 

And herein lies the rub ...

... I was talking to a chap last week. He's a bar manager. He's in his mid-20s. He has a love of watches. And, he was giving me an education. Not in watches but in "style". He was explaining that to him and to a great many other younger guys, authenticity isn't an issue. While he said that he appreciated authenticity, he wasn't prepared to pay for it. In fact, he would happily pay far less simply for a "look". Right now, that look is smaller, round, 1950s. He wouldn't contemplate a square or rectangular watch but he liked the re-cased UG I had. It didn't matter that the case wasn't correct; the dial was and the look was there.

However, he didn't want a three hander. He wanted a chronograph. He just didn't want to pay more than £300 for a vintage chrono. Of course, I told him that just wasn't going to happen. That he'd easily get a quartz for that money but a Valjoux? Cased? Working? No chance.

Applying this to the watch in the thread ... if you like it, buy it. I think it's expensive. I doubt you'll ever make the money back should you sell it (if you can re-sell it). But does it have a look? Sure. Is it " the look" ... I couldn't tell you. I think I'm old now.

 

Well said! Here is the reply to my query to the seller:

 

Baffle them with BS. At no point does he directly say it is not refinished. And any explanation that includes the word 'crisp' immediately starts me doubting the person.

 

He says close to the start that the dial is 100% original. The "Swiss Made" bothers me, as do the A and M in Omega. Is there a square on shot of the dial?

 

From an academic point of view, I find this dialog and many similar dialogues of interest.

The guy who wrote the "Dear Dave" letter undermines his own argument that the dial is original.

He begins by asserting, in essence, it is impossible to know because record-keeping was so poor back in days gone by and even catalogue information is incomplete. Original watches exist that were not cataloged and therefore the lack of documentary proof that a watch existed is not actually proof of anything other than that no one has found such evidence thus far. He further suggests that such beautiful examples are very rare as one would expect, presumably for various reasons such as exposures to light and moisture or other types of abuse, normal wear, etc.

I don't buy his argument that modern techniques for replication are inferior to manufacturing techniques of the time period and therefore a good redial is less likely to exist than a good and genuine example.

In the end, you are to believe the dial is authentic because the seller states that he is sure it is so.

It's a beautiful watch.

Since prices are on the rise, it seems that most watches for sale today are thought to be a bit higher in price than they should be. Dealers especially are driving the prices up and who can blame them?

If I loved the watch I'd offer what I felt that I wanted to pay for it and if I were turned down, I'd move on.

If my experience of my own tastes and habits has taught me that I am likely to tire of the watch and want to sell it in a year or so, then I'd be more careful not to overpay.

 

Thanks for making some very valid points. Here is the closest, most straight on shot.

 

I agree. And the 'trap' there is many sellers will insist a refinished dial is original because it is the original dial -- it's just happened to have been repainted. It's all part of the deceptive wording some shady sellers like to use, as they can probably legally argue "The dial is, in fact, the original dial, but what does that have to do with the fact that it received a fresh coat of paint to make it even nicer, your Honor? Heck, I did not even charge extra for the new paint!""

 

Reading the dealer description, he does state that the dial hasn't been redialed which he applies the same terminology to as we do, i.e. new paint, so he's either not knowledgeable enough to give a correct description or just straight out deceitful.

I have written it before, but I am always wary when I see that specific type of seconds track; while it does exist on Vintage Omegas, it is extremely often used by redialers. There must be a very common die out there that they all have

The main give away is, as said, the "SWISS MADE" which is placed very oddly, but also the very polished case which is at odds with the clean look of the dial.

 

So the dial is really attractive to me, re-dial or not (and the text in Omega and Automatic definitely says redial, even if the font used is attractive too). Not $1150 attractive, but it's nice looking. I'd wear it (but then I'm not really a collector in this market). But the badly polished case is kind of a deal breaker. The lugs seem to have lost all the definition I'd expect them to have.

 

I would like to thank all of you who have contributed to this thread and tried to help me make a reasonable decision regarding what is turned out to be a rather tricky situation. Whether you encouraged me to buy, or discouraged me, I appreciate that everyone wanted to help me in my first experience buying a vintage watch. I’m really glad to have resources available like the people in this forum who have taught me so much in the last few days. This is been a great learning experience for me!

Though all of you experts have now convinced me that this dial is repainted, I am still interested in buying this watch if I can get it at a reasonable price, taking the repainted dial into acount. So my last question to all of you is “how much do you think this watch is worth in today’s market In its present condition?” Based on your input here, and similar input from the other forum, I will make him an offer and see what happens, but I can’t see myself paying $1150 for a watch that may not be worth half that much.

 

- Dial is refinished so not worth much
- Case isn't the best, so worth maybe a couple hundred USD at most?
- Movement may be worth a couple hundred USD, but looks like it needs a service, which will cost a couple hundred.
- The rest of the value is in the hands, crown and caseback (and there are no pics of caseback).

So if you pay $500 USD for the watch and $200 for a service, you will have $700 into it. It is doubtful you would be able to resell it for that much if you needed to. Only you can figure out how much $ the watch is worth to you in the long term, though.

OF has a lot of collectors, and collectors in general do not value redialed watches very highly. It really comes down to what the other parts/ pieces are worth. But those buying for aesthetics-only tends to be more accepting to pay a premium over the parts value (at least until they go to sell it).

 

No one can be 100% certain that a 1940s dial is original. Give me a break. Study after study shows that human memory is unreliable. I love when people make absolute claims about the originality of 75-year-old watches. lol

 

I agree with you. I was referring to the sellers claims. You can't know with certainty that a 75-year-old watch is original, however we define that term.

 

Seeing as this popped up again, I looked at the photos ... is that the original track showing through under and around the 8 or am I just seeing things?