Query about the sub-seconds on Longines (B&Co 13.34)

NeepoSan · Aug 18, 2020

Hi, I'm new to this forum and am actually posting for first time about a Longines rather than an Omega....hope that's ok. After doing quite a lot of searching find that it is a Longines movement supplied by Baume and Mercier (importing into the UK) probably in the 1930s.
I picked this up recently and on delivery noticed that the sub-second hand is possibly too large for the dial. I hope the pictures show that the second hand just exceeds the diameter of the dial and moreso between 30 and 40 seconds.

I wonder if someone out there might know if it is just a matter of it having the wrong second hand or if in fact this is genuine. All the hands look the same colour blue under a loupe, but just not sure the second hand quite matches the minute and hour and might have been replaced some time in the distant past.

Other than this oddity, it's a lovely watch and am pleased with it....Would be very grateful for some comments if anyone has any thoughts about the hand or even the dial itself.
Many thanks, Nick

DirtyDozen12 · Aug 18, 2020

Unfortunately, the issue is the dial. The hands may or may not be correct but the dial has been refinished.

In order to accurately date the watch, one needs a serial number (this will be 7-digits long). This is normally found on the movement but may be found on the case too.

Modest_Proposal · Aug 18, 2020

As DD has stated, the dial is refinished, so it's hard to say if the hands are correct (though they are period correct).

Do you have a photo of the inner caseback?

NeepoSan · Aug 18, 2020

Thanks so much for responding. I haven't been able to find any serial numbers on the movement or case....but here is a picture of the caseback, which says BWC, London made. 639....if photo not clear.
Thanks again.

Dan S · Aug 18, 2020

It will be hard to know how the dial originally looked. Perhaps it has been re-cased, which would explain the absence of a Longines serial #. I presume that this is a WWI-era movement, so the original case would potentially have been trench-style with wire lugs.

NeepoSan · Aug 18, 2020

Hi Dan S. Thanks for your comment...you've got me thinking now.
And when you say requesting an extract, does that mean contacting Longines ? If so, do I have enough watch info as is to get one or should I try to open up the movement (which is a bit daunting for me) and find that serial number (if it exists)?
Cheers, Nick

Dan S · Aug 18, 2020

NeepoSan
Hi Dan S. Thanks for your comment...you've got me thinking now.
And when you say requesting an extract, does that mean contacting Longines ? If so, do I have enough watch info as is to get one or should I try to open up the movement (which is a bit daunting for me) and find that serial number (if it exists)?
Cheers, Nick

I edited my post to remove reference to an extract, since you can't get one without a serial number. If it's not visible, I don't know where you would find it. I did a quick google on the 13.34 caliber and couldn't find any reference to where the serial number might be, possibly it's on the top plate.

NeepoSan · Aug 18, 2020

Understood. Thanks again.

Radiumpassion · Aug 18, 2020

You must probably look for the serialnumber on the dial side of the movement.

Syrte · Aug 18, 2020

Radiumpassion
You must probably look for the serialnumber on the dial side of the movement.

Agree that’s where it must be considering it is unquestionably a Longines 13.34 movement.
It’s a movement which I’ve seen on watches from the 1920s and 1930s, even though the styling of the watch looks like trench watch style. Those did not vanish after WWI.

Also- I think it’s hard to tell definitively whether it was recased or not. If B.W.C. means something like «Baume Watch Co. » then I’m not sure we can rule out a national case.

NeepoSan · Aug 19, 2020

Thanks very much for these comments. Incredibly useful...so have spent all morning taking the back off and without breaking anything....and there was the serial number with a 'Longines' on the movement itself. Nothing on the back of the dial though....

So presumably now I can get a date from Longines. Thought I would post some more pictures if anyone is interested in seeing the detail. Now the fun of putting it back together...

Dan S · Aug 19, 2020

Good job. I think that serial number will probably come back with a date in 1917-1918. That era is really not in my wheelhouse, but I don't recall seeing many watches from that time with lugs like those. I'm more accustomed to seeing "trench" style cases with wire lugs, or hinged/pivoting lugs. Your case, with faceted lugs looks more modern, 1930s or 1940s, which would be in the 5M-7M serial number range.

Incidentally, there is some information here about BWC cases.
https://www.vintagewatchstraps.com/sponsorsmarks.php

If you can take a better photo of the stamps inside the case-back, there should be a date letter as one of the stamps.

NeepoSan · Aug 19, 2020

Hi Dan,
This is extremely interesting ! And the link is a pretty incredible resource for all this. Thanks v much.
So I was unaware of sponsor marks and am now investigating and trying to cross reference marks and dates....here's a macro of the marks on the case.

Dan S · Aug 19, 2020

Good photo. I think that should be enough to date the case for someone who knows how to read those tables.

Edit: I tried looking at some of the date mark tables, but obviously I'm not reading them correctly. Someone will know. If you search, you may find someone who has interpreted a date mark previously and send them a PM.

Radiumpassion · Aug 19, 2020

I gave it a shot😀

https://www.gold-traders.co.uk/hallmarks/

Dan S · Aug 19, 2020

Radiumpassion

I gave it a shot😀

https://www.gold-traders.co.uk/hallmarks/

Well done. 👍 That date makes perfect sense for the style of the case IMO.

NeepoSan · Aug 19, 2020

That's fantastic....thank you so very much for looking this up. This has been an education.

That means that the case is 21years older than the movement! and was obviously replaced at some stage and the dial refinished as well and then they kept the hands from the original which explains why the sub-dial isn't right....possibly.

Bit of a split personality this one....but still like it.

Dan S · Aug 19, 2020

NeepoSan
That's fantastic....thank you so very much for looking this up. This has been an education.

That means that the case is 21years older than the movement! and was obviously replaced at some stage and the dial refinished as well and then they kept the hands from the original which explains why the sub-dial isn't right....possibly.

Bit of a split personality this one....but still like it.

Actually, I think that the movement is 21 years older than the case, but I realize you knew that and just had a little brain fart while typing. 😉

We really learned a lot about this one, and it will be interesting to see where the movement was delivered. The UK would be the obvious expectation, but you never know.

NeepoSan · Aug 20, 2020

Yes....brain malfunction possibly due to hours spent putting this watch back together last night. And case issues aside, it keeps incredible time for a movement that's 100 years old, really impressive. Will try to get a better idea what the original case looked like.