When I go to reset the chronograph, the sub seconds hand jumps backwards a bit. This watch is only a few months old and I don't remember seeing it do this before. Is it normal? I assume not, but I'd love to get your opinion. See video:

 

Could have sworn I saw someone else with this problem once but I can't find the thread. I'd really like to know if I'm just being too picky or if I should send this in.

 

I have a theory...

This is going to be long and quite technical to explain in detail, so bear with me. With a vertically coupled chronograph like this one, the main chronograph runner that the second hand for the chronograph is attached to, is also a train wheel in the movement itself. So the chronograph runner is in 2 parts, and when the chronograph is on, both parts are moving together. When the chronograph is stopped, the train wheel portion keeps running to keep the movement ticking, and the portion that has the big second hand on it stops.

Here is a chronograph runner from a Cal. 3303 (same as 3313 and a few others - the F. Piguet based Omegas):



Although it's not the exact same thing as yours, the basic principle is the same. So the silver portions of the runner that I have pointed to with black arrows are the parts that are chronograph related, with the very thin tip on the left just peeking out from my tweezers being the post that the hand is pressed onto. The brass coloured parts I have used green arrows to highlight are the train wheel parts - these are running all the time to allow the watch to tick. So there is some friction between the 2 portions of this wheel, but ideally it should not be much.

So when you have the chronograph running and you stop it, then reset it after just a few seconds, the cam on the chronograph portion is hit by a part called the hammer, and it rotates the chronograph part of this wheel quickly to reset the hand. Depending on where the hammer hits the cam, the hand can reset clockwise or counterclockwise. I am assuming that in your video with the hand resetting CCW that the hand is setting backwards to the direction that the wheel train part of the runner wants to move. Since there is some friction between the 2 parts of this wheel, during the rest the torque being applied to the wheel train is sort of interrupted if you will, with pressure being put on the wheel opposite to what is needed to keep the watch running, so the train stalls out momentarily, and the second hand stalls for a brief time as is shown in your video.

What I would like you to do is take another video, but let the chronograph run longer this time, and stop it say 10 second before it goes around the full minute (so at 5 seconds). Then when you reset the runner should be resetting in the other direction, and you may not see that stop. If you could post that I would appreciate it thanks.

Now that I have hopefully explained why this happens, the next questions is, is it normal? I don't have a lot of experience with the 9300 yet, but with any other vertical clutch chronograph I have ever serviced, I would consider this a fault. These include various Omegas, and of course the very first vertical clutch chronograph - the Seiko 6138/6139.

So one question I have for you is do you run the chronograph all the time? If you do, then the two parts of this wheel always move together, and a problem on those old Seikos is that they become seized together over time, and when you stop the chronograph, it stops the watch - this is a test you should always do if you are considering one of these old Seiko chronographs because the runner can't be serviced and some are discontinued. It's possible that if you are running the chronograph all the time, the 2 parts of this wheel are getting sticky, so it's always a good idea to stop the chronograph and force the train wheel portion to move on it's own.

I would say if the test I have suggested confirms my theory, that you should talk to your AD or whoever you bought the watch from. Personally I'm not sure I would accept this, unless it's something that happens with all of these 9300's, but my gut feel is this is not the way they should work. Note that the greater the torque on the train (the more fully wound the mainsprings are) the less chance you would see this, so also try this again just as you have shown above, but after manually winding the watch to make sure it's at full wind.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

 

These are my favorite posts. Thank you Al.

 

Archer, first let me thank you for taking the time to write this post and all the others - you're a big reason why I'm in this hobby.

Your theory seems to be spot on: the problem does not occur if I reset the chrono at 55 sec. See video below. I repeated this test at different intervals, and the severity of the problem decreases the longer I let the chrono run. It seems to disappear completely around 40 seconds. To answer your question, no, I do not run the chrono all the time. I mostly use it for < 30 minutes at a time, not even every day.

One question I had is that I've read in several places that one doesn't have to worry about pressing the reset button while the chrono is running on the 9300 movement, that it's protected from that happening. If you try to press it while the chrono is running, the button travel stops early as one would expect given that description. However, I (quite accidentally) discovered that if you press just a bit harder, it _will_ click like normal. This is interesting to me because I've looked at the movement through the display back under a loupe quite a bit, and you can see on the column wheel where there's an indent that allows the reset button to be pressed when the chrono isn't running, and if you activate the chrono, the wheel turns and there is no longer an indent, and you can see the lever trying to push into that indent if you touch the reset button, and it obviously can't go anywhere. But then when the button clicks, where is that motion going?

But my real question is, do you think I caused this problem to happen by my accidental pressing of the reset button while the chrono was running?

Here's the video, I took it sideways so it's easier to see on a computer monitor:

 

Says video is private...

Anyway, I just looked at the operating and flyback lever systems on this watch in detail for the first time on the tech guides. They have a system built in that seems to decouple parts so that they are not damaged if actuated at the wrong time. Using awkward English that the Swiss often do when they translate these documents, the parts are called things like "operating lever declutchable" and "fly-back yoke declutchable." So although I can't say I have a handle on exactly how these work at this time, these seem to allow you to press whatever you want and not have any problems. Also, what they call a column wheel is quite different that the traditional item that is called this, and on this watch it looks quite a bit more robust than what one on a Cal. 321 looks like for example, so you are unlikely to cause a failure like this:



I doubt you had anything to do with this problem, but despite the apparent safeties I would not make a habit of pushing the buttons when they really should not be pushed.

Cheers, Al

 

Thanks again Al! I just un-locked the video (whoops). Guess I'll be sending this watch in for service. Which is a pity because I've only had it for 2 weeks since the last time it went in (for debris under the crystal ).

Thank you very much for helping me figure this out.

 

Glad I was able to help. I just checked a 3313 I have here and no matter which way the hand resets, no hesitation in the seconds hand...

 

I received the watch back today. Though the invoice lists "Partial Maint. Svc. Mech. Chronograph", the remarks state "The movement is running within factory specifications." and indeed, they did nothing. The problem still exists, exactly the same as it did when I sent it in. I wrote a very clear letter describing how to reproduce the problem.

What do you guys think I should do at this point? I spent $120 in insured overnight shipping to get this watch to Swatch in Culver City

 

And now that I'm resetting the time on it, I've noticed that when I move the minute hand, the second hand wiggles a bit too.... Archer, does this change your diagnosis at all? What do you think I should do?

 

Sorry to hear your bad news. I hope you can get this sorted out for a reasonable price.

 

My 9300 DSOTM is the same. I hadn't even noticed until it was mentioned on another forum. So when next I was in a boutique, I checked new dark and grey sides and they were the same. On the 25th I am going to the swatch repair centre in Bangkok to get a new bezel fitted to my PO (you can just walk in to get your watch looked at). I'll take my DSOTM and ask about this issue.

 

If it happens when you are setting the time backwards, then the same diagnosis would be my conclusion - again putting torque on the wheel train opposite to it's normal direction cases the train to hesitate. This is similar to when Speedy Pro users hack the movement by turning the crown backwards, using the friction on the cannon pinion to apply the back pressure.

When you took it and told them of this problem, they obviously agreed it was a problem or they would not have taken it back for a partial repair, correct? Then I guess keep pressing the issue with them...

 

Caller, fascinating. I had no idea other 9300s behaved the same way. Maybe this really is "normal"? Does anyone have a 9300 that doesn't show this behavior?

Archer, I bought this watch used, so I have no AD I'm working with, I've just been working directly with Swatch, via FedEx. Every time I've called them about an issue, they always say to just send it in and let them look at it, regardless. And though the invoice says partial service, the red dot is intact. In fact, the last time I sent this waych for service (due to debris under the crystal), they cleaned it out and the red dot also remained intact, so they either replaced the dot with more red or they can remove the crystal without opening the case back (I'm sure you'd know if that's possible on this model).

 

Look at the red dot with a loop. It's split if they opened the watch. I have had a Speedmaster 9300 serviced and they did not put a blue dot but under magnification I could see the red dot was split between the case and the caseback.

 

This discussion has reminded me that when I bought the Dark Side that there was just a bit more 'slop' in the 9300 mechanism when setting the time - when setting the time backwards (even by just a minute or two) the second hand would flop back by about 4/5 seconds. But roll forwards in preparation for setting the time and the second hand would tighten up straight away. I thought this was normal or at the very least a quirk of the 9300.

Roll forward to my recent Grey Side purchase and there is no slop at all when setting the time.

Neither show any 'slop' (my technical term!) when starting, stopping and resetting (at a variety of positions) the chrono.

Not sure this helps you much - other than to say that there do seem to be differences when comparing two 9300's side by side.

Maybe more of a quirk rather than an issue if it continues to tell good time.

 

Very fascinating to hear everyone's 9300 accounts. I suppose the situation is that the 9300 is new, relatively speaking, and Omega maybe doesn't have a firm grip on all its failure modes yet, for lack of a less severe term. I would imagine that this issue happening on a ~$10k watch will be deemed unacceptable, or at least very strange, by more than just myself. Maybe as more people report it, it'll be something they recognize and fix. Because I'm 100% sure they could make this go away if they wanted to. They just don't want to... yet.

 

Two observations on this issue:

(1) Several people PM'd me to say that their 9300 was exhibiting the same problem. One of them was even a grey side of the moon. Still, it doesn't effect all 9300s, but more than a few.

(2) This issue does not seem to effect timekeeping accuracy. Using the WatchTracker iOS app, which does a pretty good job (when used properly) at calculating seconds per day, I started, stopped, and reset my chrono 10 times per day for 3 days in a row, and then 3 days off, then 3 on again. This is way, way more than I would ever do in normal usage. Despite this, the accuracy remained at 3.4 - 3.6 seconds per day, regardless of which kind of day it was. Perhaps when the seconds hand jumps back, it does so faster than usual, and at least partially corrects for this issue?

So, given (2) above, and the fact that Omega considers this to be normal behavior, I now regard this as an endearing quirk of the 9300, and a non-issue, and quite love this watch.

 

This is almost always the healthiest approach... If I had this watch I'd love it quirks and all too. Then get it sorted at first service.