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Pay Pal F&F can be clawed back.

Larry S
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Just saw a post on the Steve Hoffman Audio Forums..Guy had a buyer claw back F&F. Kept his CD player claiming it was broken despite sellers getting FedEx to pay for repair and trying to make good. Guy never responded and then did this months later. Pay Pal deducted the claw back from his cash balance.

BEWARE.
 
Dan S
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If this is true, it's pretty surprising that we've never heard of it happening previously.
 
X350 XJR
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I wonder what the outcome would have been if there were no cash balance in their account. Food for thought, drain your account?
 
seekingseaquest
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Maybe I’m in the minority but I always just assumed this was possible, even if uncommon.

If no balance in your account, maybe it goes negative and they take the excess next time you pay a balance (or they don’t let you use the service until non-negative)? Not sure.
 
josiahg52
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The known scam involving F&F was to dispute the CC charge as the buyer. The d-bag buyer gets their money back, PayPal goes after the seller for funds and debits their account or restricts it. This is a new angle. One of many reasons why I closed my PayPal account.
 
Redwes25
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I have heard of this. I know sellers that would wait until money got out of PayPal and into their bank accounts before shipping.
 
Larry S
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
Wait, the Steve Hoffman forum is still going?
Indeed. Pretty primitive but useful. What I mean, is that it is not as function rich as OF.
That said, it’s great source of audio and AV expertise. Music knowledge too.
Edited:
 
Davidt
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This has been discussed previously on OF and it’s the reason I only accept pp f&f from known buyers or those with solid references.

I believe the scam requires payment to be sent using credit card then disputed with the cc company
 
GuiltunderGlass
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Way back when I used to sell a lot on eBay, I made a dedicated bank account for PP. Kept the balance at zero and withdrew funds immediately after a sale. Just simply don't use it anymore is the best advice.
 
Larry S
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seekingseaquest seekingseaquest
Steve is a member here btw, he bought a watch from me a few years back!
I enjoy his forum a great deal. Been there a lot of late. It’s a community with very deep expertise and experience. I clarified my previous comment above.
Edited:
 
JwRosenthal
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Larry S Larry S
I enjoy his forum a great deal. Been there a lot of late. It’s a community with very deep expertise and experience. I clarified my previous comment above.
My comment stands- I used it as a resource regularly many years ago and figured it had petered out by now- amazed it’s still going strong and that’s a good thing!

To use parallels- I found audiokarma to be like WUS- some nice folks and lots of hobbyists just trying to get good sound on the cheap- was always happy to help them. But lots of “my stereo goes so loud”

audiogon forums were a lot like TRF, some great knowledge but if you weren’t rolling megabucks systems some sneered at you.
Steve’s form was a lot like OF, a lot of people who were in the industry happy to help newbies, a few jackasses who would wander over from Audiogon but for the most part- all about the love of music and appreciating it, not as much about gear lust or snobbery.
 
Larry S
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
My comment stands- I used it as a resource regularly many years ago and figured it had petered out by now- amazed it’s still going strong and that’s a good thing!

To use parallels- I found audiokarma to be like WUS- some nice folks and lots of hobbyists just trying to get good sound on the cheap- was always happy to help them. But lots of “my stereo goes so loud”

audiogon forums were a lot like TRF, some great knowledge but if you weren’t rolling megabucks systems some sneered at you.
Steve’s form was a lot like OF, a lot of people who were in the industry happy to help newbies, a few jackasses who would wander over from Audiogon but for the most part- all about the love of music and appreciating it, not as much about gear lust or snobbery.
That has been my experience. Audiokarma is just opinionated blather. I’ve gotten and hopefully provided actionable advice at SHF. It’s a big tent from folks who just want a chi fi desk top system to folks with 100k turntables. You also have the builder, engineer, data geek subculture there. Ask about a band with a huge bewildering catalog like Porcupine Tree and you get 10 pages of advice on how to get started. On the “loud stereo” thing, yea, like here, on occasion you get people who have tied themselves into knots so complicated that no advice, save “chuck it and start over” will help them.
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abrod520
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Redwes25 Redwes25
wait until money got out of PayPal and into their bank accounts before shipping

This is what I've always done regardless of payment method. Just in case, I also link my PP / Venmo etc to a bank account I don't keep a balance in and that doesn't allow demand drafts. Just feels safer that way
 
Redwes25
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abrod520 abrod520
This is what I've always done regardless of payment method. Just in case, I also link my PP / Venmo etc to a bank account I don't keep a balance in and that doesn't allow demand drafts. Just feels safer that way

I was referring to you in my post....
 
Larry S
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Redwes25 Redwes25
I was referring to you in my post....

Some thoughts and insights from recent transactions:
-I have a firewalled bank account now for cash transfers at the urging of my banker. This is my default from here on in.
- I now see no reason for F&F unless the person is well known as reputable to me and others here on OF, and yes I move the cash immediately.
-If they insist on normal PP, I get a confirmation in writing that they will pay the up charge and won’t play games as the item in question is non returnable, unless grossly misrepresented.
-Buyers must also state that they understand that servicing on their dime may be necessary as shipping vintage watches, no matter how well packaged, is still hard on them.
-New Best Practice: Buyer pays shipping, sends me a label and assumes the risk in writing on international shipments after a bank transfer and I have moved the money. That gets me out of the customs value issue. I’m still happy to ship via parcel pro insured within CONUS.
-Balk and we are not moving forward.
Edited:
 
Ron_W
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That is a clear message @Larry S !!
I think Paypal update their terms in May to Exclude credit cards claims from the seller protection program ? can`t find the email explaining this but it related to chargebacks via the credit card used to pay via PP.
 
Larry S
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Ron_W Ron_W
That is a clear message @Larry S !!
I think Paypal update their terms in May to Exclude credit cards claims from the seller protection program ? can`t find the email explaining this but it related to chargebacks via the credit card used to pay via PP.
The culprit actually used CC on his F&F and then used it to claw back with PP.
 
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