Opinions, Railmaster / Flightmaster, Panama Air Force

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sohail

·Mar 18, 2013

130867391743 hi what do u think about this railmaster / flightmaster eBay listing

http://www.ebay.com/itm/13086739174...l?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=130867391743&_rdc=1

 

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MSNWatch

·Mar 18, 2013·Vintage Omega Aficionado

Could not get past the dial being way too aged and the hands and crown being later replacements.

 

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watchyouwant

·Mar 18, 2013

that would not worry me at all. can be easily rectified. i`d need a close up from the back engraving. the whole story does not make sense. panama airforce.... yeah, right..... FAP is Peru. always was, always will be. and: IF this is a flightmaster and all correct with the back engraving matching, they fetch under US$ 20.000.in this condition with all the faults maybe 40% less. kind regards. achim

 

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MSNWatch

·Mar 18, 2013·Vintage Omega Aficionado

Achim,
Is a flightmaster in excellent original shape now a $20k watch?

 

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watchyouwant

·Mar 18, 2013

yes.but in all original, perfect shape...... military omegas are very sought after lately. even the white railmaster prototypes fetch over US$ 15.000 in average condition. kind regards. achim

 

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MSNWatch

·Mar 18, 2013·Vintage Omega Aficionado

Good to hear. What do you reckon that military manual wind with the swan neck regulator is worth? Only saw one example of that.

 

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sohail

·Mar 19, 2013

My question is that the omega archive mentions that it was delivered to panama . Is this possible ?

 

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JimInOz

·Mar 19, 2013·Melbourne Australia

Fuerza Aérea Panameña (FAP) - Established January 17, 1969.

"The FAP had no combat aircraft but about 30 transport and communication aircraft and helicopters and used two bases in Ciudad de Panamá. At the time of the United States invasion in 1989 the FAP consisted of 4 flying units with about 60 aircraft and helicopters. The Panamanian Air Force lost 37 aircraft during "Operation Just Cause" and some of the survivors were transferred to civilian use. After the invasion another air force was formed as part of theFuerza Publicas Panameña (Panamanian Public Forces), as Servicio Aérea Nacional (National Air Service) with 16 fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft organised in three operational squadrons and one presidential flight."

While I understand that FAP has more generally been associated with Peru, isn't it possible that, even in 1964, some watches may have gone to Panama?

Although at that time the "Air Force" was only a flight detachment of the National Guard.

Pity there's no caseback pics.

 

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sohail

·Mar 19, 2013

jimin excellent info and new to the internet forums... great . Here is a sample of corrcct military railmaster /seamaster watch back . please note the movement number engraved under the PAF markings.

 

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watchyouwant

·Mar 19, 2013

yes, but PAF is pakistani airfoce; not peru. PAF must have a seamaster amag. dial , not a flightmaster dial. kind regards. achim

 

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sohail

·Mar 19, 2013

Yes it has a Seamaster dial , what I wanted to stress was that the military railmasters/seamaster s/ flightmasters should have the movement numbers engraved on the outer back.

 

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watchyouwant

·Mar 19, 2013

MSNWatch

Good to hear. What do you reckon that military manual wind with the swan neck regulator is worth? Only saw one example of that.

no idea; there is nothing for sale to establish a price pattern. bill soehne has one and i saw a few others in the last 25 years. the swan neck on this movement was an experiment by omega and only a few were produced and sold. the white dial railmaster came with swan neck and without swan neck mvmts. it was a special order from Canada and the first cases, omega used, were unused factory stock cases from the military 1953 omega. still had fixed bars. reference was the basis mil. reference without the 1 or 2 behind the 2777. then the case was slightly altered in profile and without fixed bars. these were tried by omega between the 1953 military contract and the 1957 railmaster debut. different white dial configurations have surfaced over the years. i had a long conversation with john diethelm about these watches. that was a try and error period until the final design emerged. a very interesting developement for the amag. railmasters. IWC and JLC amag. MK 11 started in 1948. when rolex entered that amag. field later, the limited interest had mostly been satisfied and the rolex milgauss was a lousy seller. but that made it very desirable a few decades later.....kind regards. achim

 

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watchyouwant

·Mar 19, 2013

sohail

Yes it has a Seamaster dial , what I wanted to stress was that the military railmasters/seamaster s/ flightmasters should have the movement numbers engraved on the outer back.

not all, only the pakistani version had the mvmt. number outside. kind regards. achim

 

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pitpro

·Mar 19, 2013

Here's info I have. Taken from seller's description in eBay auction.
Take for what it's worth.
The first Railmaster 2914-1 did not have any Seahorse on the backcase.
Railmaster 2914-2 to 4 had Seahorse
Railmaster with C and R are truly fakes.

The 2914-1 to 3 had Big arrow head hands
2914-3 to 4 had dauphine hands. Not sure if there is any -5
The latest Railmaster from 1964 had straight hands.
19mm Bracelet 7912 6 or 9 endpieces
"normal " 2914 with original stretchband. a very early issued one for the pakistani airforce; correct labelled "seamaster" on the dial.

you are bidding on an very, very sought after TOOLWATCH . THE Omega Railmaster from 1960. ref. 2914-6 . this is an all original amagnetic watch from Omega. very hard to find; the grail watch of many collectors. but there is a step up ::::::::::::::::::::: a military issued railmaster !!!! there are only 2 airforce´s, that issued Railmasters to their pilots. the pakistani airforce and the peruvian airforce ( they also issued ROL*X chronos to their pilots. and these fetch around US$ 40.000 -45.000 these days !) this here is a very early delivery with the typical seamaster printed railmaster dial ( thick soft iron dial ) and the original railmaster back. later deliveries had the same dial, but a railmaster reference back with outside seamaster engravings and the special number. early had dauphine hands like this here; later deliveries had stick hands. nice case with minor dents. there is case corrosion around the lugs. but that does not affect moisture problems; the caseback closed good. the caseback has worn engravings . but still everything to see with a loupe. this omega railmaster here has the setup from railmaster in the "omegamania" auction from 2007. lot 243 on page 486 in the "omegamania" catalogue. fetched SFR 19.000 plus premium . there are many known and confirmed variants; from the " stick hands" to lume pencil hands to small arrow minute hand to big arrow hour hand and dauphine hands. and the dials range from early models silver print on black to white print on black to arabic lume numerals with pencil hands . all factory confirmed. and the famous white dial railmaster as a prototype for canada. the P.A.F. stamped mvmt. was not serviced by us ; it keeps very good time. nothing to spend in the moment ! we guarantee, that you get an Omega excerpt of origin for this beauty, or money back ! the dial is slightly scratched around the luminous wells; quite normal for a 50 year old toolwatch .the lume was replaced; it started in life with radium and that shows around the lume wells over the years. all inner amag. covers there. the dial is correct signed for this military railmaster. under side: 61673 ZJ. the all original and correct for that model dauphine shaped hands are in excellent shape. overall a very, very collectable toolwatch for the amag. collection of these famous roljaegiwomegpate*´s. too many fakes everywhere; so, take your chance, to get the original military issued PAF Railmaster for a good price. the omega factory archives show, that this movemnent with that movement number ( don´t ask for the full number; we don´t want more fakes...) was delivered the the pakistani airforce in 1960 !!!!!
Pic I have of last Railmaster 135.004 which is what ebay above is supposed to be

PAF Railmaster. 135.004 Pics borrowed form Franco

 

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watchyouwant

·Mar 19, 2013

yes, your pics. are correct. both watches are the same; just a different angle and light. i sold this watch with omega confirmation to franco. kind regards. achim

 

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dsio

·Mar 23, 2013·Ash @ ΩF

Saw this one on the bay, not even remotely in my wheelhouse though....

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Omega-Railma...mbanduhren&hash=item35c5b314b2#ht_1633wt_1013

 

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sohail

·Mar 23, 2013

Now that the watch is sold ... please take a look at the omega archive from another site which clearly mentions that it was delivered to Pakistan Air Force ..... In my opinion all the orders from the military were ordered directly by the military authorities to omega . Therefore , the archive has to show the the the customer name as they were all direct orders to omega with some modifications. ...... I may be wrong?????

 

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sohail

·Mar 23, 2013

Hi pitpro the sellers description is for the normal railmasters ... Not the PAF ones . I am 100 percent sure that none of the railmasters were delivered to PAF with the normal railmaster logo. All of them were with the Seamaster logo. Ck 2914 and 135.004 were both delivered to PAF . Ck2914 did not have the seahorse logo and the movement number was engraved at the outer case back, also a tiny PAF was also engraved on the movement. The 135.004 had the seahorse with the movement number engraved outside of the case back. The 135.004 to my knowledge did not have tiny PAF engraved on the movement. There is a huge price difference in the normal and military railmasters , therefore a lot of them u will see in the market are converted PAF ones .

 

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sohail

·Mar 23, 2013

Achim thanks for the info as I have never seen a Peruvian Air Force issued railmaster/flightmaster regards

 

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watchyouwant

·Mar 23, 2013

dsio

Saw this one on the bay, not even remotely in my wheelhouse though....

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Omega-Railma...mbanduhren&hash=item35c5b314b2#ht_1633wt_1013

i`m not comfortable with this watch.....unless the omega archive states, that it was delivered to peru. and in the correct timeframe. the dial font is strange. and the back engraving is very deep und unworn. as is the FAB engraving. somehow it does not match the rest of the watch.... just a thought. kind regards./ achim

 

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