Hey everyone. I just had a local shop service my Speedmaster. When I picked it up, the watchmaker reported it was running dead on and showed me on the timegrapher. It actually reported gaining 3 seconds per day and had a very flat graph line. I was happy so I paid and left.

While wearing it over the next 24 hours, I noticed it losing about 20 seconds over 24 hours! I confirmed this with the Twixt app. I took it back to the watchmaker and reported what i had found. He seemed shocked. He put it on the timegrapher and it again showed a perfectly flat graph line and gaining 3 seconds per day. How can my watch be timing so much differently than the timegrapher is showing?

Any input on what I should do? Maybe visit another shop to have it graphed on their equipment?

Pic just for kicks: http://i.imgur.com/5EOPyym.jpg

 

Are your certain that you are measuring accurately? What timing source are you using? Also, twixt has a reputation for questionable accuracy on the forums.

 

Yeah, Twixt was just a secondary measure. I set the time (to the second with back hacking) to time.gov.

I set it at 11:00 am this morning. Already now at 4:00pm it is almost 5 seconds behind. So it appears I'm losing about a second per hour at this rate.

 

Did he show you all positions or just the X value? An 1861 Speedmaster can be adjusted pretty close.

Now if his graphs are showing all good amplitude and adjusted dial up and crown down... you just might be one of those weird people.

Every time I had a watch keep funky time, I've asked the watchmaker to wear it herself.

Al?

Tom

 

He actually showed me dial up/down and also crown up/down. It varies from +3-6 seconds. Most of the day though, my watch sits dial up on my wrist at my desk. Weird huh?!

 

Maybe his machine is off.

 

I wondered that as well. He acts like its never been off though...

 

Well, if your watch is consistently off against time.gov, based on the way you wear it, just ask the watchmaker to adjust it by that amount on his machine.

 

Can do. Just wasn't sure if that was a normal request or not. I don't claim to be super knowledgable about regulating. I'll see what he says!

 

Hard to say what the issue is - timing machines (professional grade ones at least) are usually calibrated every few years to make sure the time source is accurate. The cheap Chinese made machines do not use aged quartz crystals like the professional quality machines do, so they tend to drift more over time, but still 20 seconds difference is huge.

I assume you are winding the watch once per day fully? Are these checks being done with the chronograph on or off? They should be done with it off.

You said he showed you 4 positions, so dial up, dial down, crown up, and crown down. But I guess not crown left or right? I'm assuming these checks were done at full wind, but what about full wind -24 hours? Isochronism could be another possibility. Knowing the amplitude numbers at full wind would be helpful...

By the way I never rely on timing machine numbers to confirm the final regulation. After I do the initial adjustments on the machine, the watch is fully assembled and tested in real time. I check every watch I service over a 10 day period, so 24 hours in each of the 6 positions, then 24 hours on the final test winder (even manual wind watches, as this gives an idea of what timing will be like on the wrist), and then I let the watch run down to check power reserve. The shops who turn around a watch very quickly (a week or 2) are obviously not doing this kind of testing...not saying your guy isn't, but watchmakers and owners need to remember that a timing machine reading is just a very small snapshot in time, so although they can tell you a lot, they don't always tell the whole story.

Cheers, Al

 

Hi Al, thanks for commenting!

1. The timing machine seems nice....but I cant say for sure if its a high end model or lower end. I would assume its at least decent.
2. Yep, winding first thing in the morning. Fully until it stops.
3. Chronograph was off during timing
4. Yep, he showed me crown up and down, and dial up and down. He didnt show me crown left of right, but I would at least hope he regulated with those orientations. Its possible he didn't though. I can ask. When I'm at my computer, my watch is generally 100% dial up. Its just the way my arm sits while typing.
5. I'm not 100% clear what you're asking about the full wind -24 hours. Do you mean wind it fully, then test after its ran a full 24 hrs?
6. I'll see if I can get the amplitude numbers. He didnt give those to me.

I don't believe my guy did that extensive testing, so its probably going to be up to me to test and return to him with real world numbers. Yesterday I set the watch to time.gov to the second using back hacking. I'll watch it over the next couple days, divide the time lost by however many days I test, and have him regulate accordingly. I feel that should get me pretty close. So, I synced it yesterday at 11:00. If I check it again in 72 hrs and I've lost 40 seconds, I'll just have him regulate it to +13 on his timing machine. Does that sound like a decent plan?

Thanks again, Al!

 

Full wind -24 hours is just as you described - checking timing 24 hours after the watch has been wound. Although I check all watches I service in 6 positions, the Speedmaster Pro movements 321, 861, 1861, 1863, 1866, are not COSC. COSC watches are checked in 5 positions, but non-COSC watches are checked in 3. So would he check and adjust for 6 positions? It really depends on what standard he decides to work to.

You can certainly choose to just have it regulated to your wear pattern, but honestly being as far off as you say it is, if it's an 1861, there is something amiss IMO. If it's an older version, the tolerances are more generous, but in the end for an 1861 the average daily rate should be between -1 and +11.

Cheers, Al

 

Ugg, thats what I'm worried about. My watch is a 2009....so not real old. I've never used this guy before, so I'm really hoping he actually serviced it as he said he did.

 

Ok, after setting to the second with time.gov and letting exactly 24 hrs pass, my watch lost 9-10 seconds. Not as horrible as the 20 seconds according to Twixt (I know its not super accurate), but still not great. Al, you mentioned with a discrepancy of 20 seconds, something is certainly amiss, do you still think that after a 10 second loss, or is it just likely it needs re-regulated?

Thanks in advance!

 

If it were me (and at times it has been me!) I'd call -20 seconds per day unacceptable and send it back.

Tom

 

Yeah, it'll be going back for sure. He's local to me, so at least I don't have to ship it out anywhere.

 

Okay just to give you an idea of what the tolerances are for the 1861...

The Delta, or positional variation at full wind, measured over only 3 positions, can be as much as 15 seconds and still be within Omega tolerances. At full wind -24 hours, it can be as much as 20 seconds and still be within Omega tolerances.

So the tolerances Omega sets for this watch are actually pretty generous. Now with the updated loss of -9 seconds over a day, I'm more inclined to think the watch might be in spec with regards to positional variation, and just needs to have the average rate moved. But without solid number done under controlled conditions, it's hard to say for sure.

Cheers, Al

 

Thanks Al! I appreciate your input! I'm going to be out of town on vacation for the next week. I'll likely wear it while I'm gone and see what kind of results I get. Once I get back, I'll see what my watchmaker can do. I'm glad to hear it might just need some general adjusting.

 

Right, get a starting point when you leave. You can check it daily but it will be much more accurate if you record the loss over a week. You want to make sure it's consistent. Checking it on vacation isn't exactly under controlled conditions, but if you do not wind it at the same time daily then the data from the entire week is pretty much worthless. If you are gonna go to bed and wake up at odd hours it may be best to wait until you return.

If you wear the watch on your left hand then the crown left position comes into play with your thumb up. It's possible this is where the variance comes from.

 

You're probably right. Maybe I'll rethink my plan a bit.