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Opinion on lot 81 of Phillips Start Stop Reset Auction

Thomas P.
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I noticed something fishy about lot 81 of the Phillips Start Stop Reset Auction Coming up. In my opinion, this Movado chronograph is questionable. I have the Movado History book by Franz Von Osterhausen. In the book, it shows the reference numbering system that Movado used from 1966 to 1971. This watch according to the description has a reference number of 95 704 568. This reference number is a reference number used from 1966 to 1971. That means that the case was made around that time. The dial has a 1940s style to it. With this in mind while I don't know how the watch left the factory and again I am only giving an opinion, this watch has an earlier replacement dial. I have attached images of the pages showing the referencing system. Please let me know your thoughts on this. I am only trying to help the community.
 
image.jpg image.jpg
oddboy
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Where's the pics of the watch? On movadoforums.net?
 
oddboy
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Cheers Thomas!

I'll post a pic just so it's here for posterity.

IMG_20160409_205042_edit.png
 
oddboy
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Me?

👎

I don't know Movado from Casio..

I like turtles, and Speedmasters.

I'm sure other members with knowledge of the topic will be along soon enough though.
 
LouS
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Case is correct for a 95-704-568, dial is highly atypical. I agree with you that it is probably not correct.
 
Thomas P.
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Yes absolutely the case is correct for the 95-704-568 reference. I suspect but cannot prove that somewhere along the watch's life the dial was swapped out with a 1940s dial. What do you think it will really sell for?
 
jordn
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For whatever it is worth, I've seen this watch in this exact configuration a few times before. Regarding the dial, I would say the "styling" is inspired by 30's, but the three-tone layout is distinctly 50's. I wonder how Phillips derived the date of the manufacture (1950). @Thomas P. does that book include a chronological serial number database?
 
Vitezi
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The auction catalog provides a photo of the caseback and reference number. Can any further clues be derived from it?
upload_2016-4-9_21-11-59.png
 
LouS
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Thomas P. Thomas P.
Yes absolutely the case is correct for the 95-704-568 reference. I suspect but cannot prove that somewhere along the watch's life the dial was swapped out with a 1940s dial. What do you think it will really sell for?
Probably what Bacs says it will. He brings in a bunch of bidders who do not do their own due diligence but trust his.

jordn jordn
For whatever it is worth, I've seen this watch in this exact configuration a few times before. Regarding the dial, I would say the "styling" is inspired by 30's, but the three-tone layout is distinctly 50's. I wonder how Phillips derived the date of the manufacture (1950). @Thomas P. does that book include a chronological serial number database?

With this reference number? I haven't. The same, or very similar case exists with an earlier reference number. Are you sure it wasn't the earlier one that you saw?
 
Thomas P.
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jordn jordn
For whatever it is worth, I've seen this watch in this exact configuration a few times before. Regarding the dial, I would say the "styling" is inspired by 30's, but the three-tone layout is distinctly 50's. I wonder how Phillips derived the date of the manufacture (1950). @Thomas P. does that book include a chronological serial number database?
No unfortunately it is not really possible to date a Movado using the serial number. I believe that Movado started at 1 for each individual reference. I have a 49068 which is the same watch in 14k YG with a serial number of 8. This was not the 8th watch Movado made...
 
jordn
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LouS LouS
With this reference number? I haven't. The same, or very similar case exists with an earlier reference number. Are you sure it wasn't the earlier one that you saw?
Not sure of the reference number, but it was in this exact Borgel case. I wasn't aware of this, but if there are different ref numbers for the same case, the caseback or the entire case could be service replacement parts instead of the dial. In any case, Phillips should notify their clients with this info (assuming that the book is correct). Service case or incorrect dial should effect value and more importantly, desirability.

Here is another one that I found off of google just now.

12751438_213647428987456_1276162123_n.jpg
Edited:
 
Thomas P.
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jordn jordn
Not sure of the reference number, but it was in this exact Borgel case. I wasn't aware of this, but if there are different ref numbers for the same case, the caseback or the entire could be a service replacement parts instead of the dial. In any case, Phillips should notify their clients with this info (assuming that the book is correct). Service case or incorrect dial should effect value and more importantly, desirability.

Here is another one that I found off of google just now.

12751438_213647428987456_1276162123_n.jpg
There are different reference numbers for the same case; pre 1966 and 1966 through 1971. 95-704-568 is the 1966 through 1971 reference and 19068 is the reference number used before 1966. I can believe the 49038 (the gold watch) dial being correct to the watch (it is the predecessor to the 49068 which is the 14k YG version of the 19068) but the steel one I have my doubts about especially with the breguet numerals. Again just an opinion.
 
jordn
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Thomas P. Thomas P.
There are different reference numbers for the same case; pre 1966 and 1966 through 1971. 95-704-568 is the 1966 through 1971 reference and 19068 is the reference number used before 1966. I can believe the 49038 (the gold watch) dial being correct to the watch (it is the predecessor to the 49068 which is the 14k YG version of the 19068) but the steel one I have my doubts about especially with the breguet numerals. Again just an opinion.

Well, I think the dial is ok, but like you said there is nothing concrete to be said about it. However, the caseback, at the very least, appears to be dubious. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.
 
Thomas P.
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The caseback in the photo appears to be ok so long as the 1800 number matches the inside of the lugs. Movado with the FB cases has up to 4 digits of the serial number on the inside of the lugs and the complete serial number on the inside of the caseback.
 
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