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omega service vs independent - # of parts replaced?

  1. oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Feb 13, 2016

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    Hey gang,

    Setting aside aesthetic issues, it seems to me that Omega is more aggressive in replacing movement parts than the independents I've used.

    Some of this may be attributable to be the difficulty in getting parts for sure, but, longevity of the watch in mind, would this make a difference?

    Would it be better to have movement parts replaced aggressively to ensure top performance and best preservation? Or is Omega doing this to make the $$ they charge feel worthwhile?

    I understand it will be different for each watch, but in my own experience, and in FS listings, I've noticed that omega serviced watches always seem to have a lot more parts in the bag..

    Thoughts appreciated!
     
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  2. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 13, 2016

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    Interesting topic - don't think I've ever seen this question asked before. Since it's very cold and blowing snow out, and I'm waiting for it to calm down before I clear out the driveway, I'll ramble on for a bit...

    I can only speak for myself, not for Omega and certainly not for other independents. In a situation with a modern movement or one where parts are readily available from Omega (so say for the automatics from the 55X, 56X, and 75X series and newer), I am generally pretty ruthless in replacing worn parts. Not everyone is.

    For example I was contacted late last year by someone needing a watch serviced, and I provided my price and time frame. They told me that they had planned to use someone local to them because that watchmaker was going to have the watch done in 2 weeks. They went ahead with that service (that was also much less expensive than what I charge based on that watchmaker's web site) and now that watch is sitting on my bench in a disassembled state. In addition to lack of cleanliness and poor lubrication practices (way too much oil on the escapement in particular), the watch has a series of worn parts in it that I will replace. Those didn't wear to this state over the last 3 months...

    Every watchmaker uses their judgment to determine if a part is able to be used again. My view is that wear begets wear...it may take several years for a part to start wearing, but once it starts the rate of wear accelerates. You very quickly go from just a tiny bit of wear, to enough wear that performance is affected. For example on a pivot once that shiny new surface has been worn through or scored, wear to this level seems to take relatively little time:

    [​IMG]

    In vintage watches where parts are scarce or no longer available, then it's a different situation, but that's almost another topic in itself. There you can look at alternatives like donor watches, parts on the open market, and even repairing worn parts. In a modern watch with easily purchased parts, no one is going to repair a train wheel that costs $12.

    So what are some possible reasons why you see fewer parts replaced? I can only speculate, but do these watchmakers clean and then inspect every part under a microscope for wear? Do they judge the amount of acceptable wear differently than Omega does? Have they given a quoted price, and now don't want to spend the money to replace a part that they didn't expect to be worn? Do they not want to ask for more money from the customer fearing a backlash? Or are the parts just simply in better condition in these watches, and Omega is changing parts that they don't really need to change?

    All are possible I think, and it would depend on the watchmaker and how they run their business.

    If you really want to know if Omega is replacing parts that don't need replacing, I would be quite willing to look at any parts that someone has received back from Omega to see if they are worn or not.

    Cheers, Al
     
  3. oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Feb 13, 2016

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    Thanks for the thoughts Al!

    My own experience is limited. I had an 861 in to omega and they returned a bag of parts. All the other watches done at independents, crystal, pushers crown and seals, and that's about it.. surprised me a bit on some of the 321's as I had expected some to be in rough shape...

    If you're curious, I would gladly send the 861 parts along, but I don't want to waste your time just to satisfy my own curiosity.

    I see lots of FS listing though for vintage speedies where it seems a lot more was replaced. I know there are many variables, but again, thanks for chiming in.

    ..bloody cold today, eh?
     
    Edited Feb 13, 2016
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  4. Canuck Feb 13, 2016

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    Had a guy call me for an opinion on repairing a 40 year old clock, recently. He didn't like what I had to say! I said, where possible, I replace clock 40 year old clock movements rather than repairing them. He asked for an explanation. I told him that a 40 year old clock with a few new bearings, cleaning, etc., is still a 40 year old clock! Replacing meant, for about the same price, he had essentially a new clock! By replacing a whole bunch of parts, Omega is basically returning the whole watch to factory specs. Or as close as possible to those specs. This guy didn't want his movement changed. It's his clock, so it's his right. I have to guarantee the job I do, so in replacing the movement, it's my right. I hope he finds someone who'll fix his clock, but it won't be me! Boo Hoo!
     
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  5. Banner Roar Feb 13, 2016

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    If you send you watch to Omega for a service what will they do as part of the 'service'. Is it just movement or do they look at dial/hands/lume. Would they replace lume?
     
  6. oddboy Zero to Grail+2998 In Six Months Feb 13, 2016

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    Generally, omega will replace parts that don't look good or meet specs. They will replace dial, hands, etc. I don't believe they replace lume but rather whole parts.

    For nice vintage watches, that would suck (in most collector's eyes).
     
  7. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 14, 2016

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    Yes it was cold yesterday and even colder this morning (-23 when we got up today). Just got the driveway done yesterday when the snow blower ran out of gas!

    Anyway, I am very willing to look at the parts you received back and post the results here in this thread. I assume some movement parts were replaced? Maybe post a photo of the bag of parts before you bother shipping it.

    Cheers, Al
     
  8. Horlogerie EU based Professional Watchmaker Feb 14, 2016

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    No time to answer earlier, had to go out for some Sunday visits... I was doing the math, 1000 parts per year replaced, lets estimate 2-4 watches serviced per week X 50 weeks (2 weeks off) equals to 5-10 parts replaced per watch.

    If I assume a replacement barrel, a couple of gaskets, that leaves anywhere from 2-6 movement parts replaced per watch on each and every watch. That is not an insignificant number. And with $50K in spares that isn't a small inventory either. Be curious as to what other makers replacement number are for Rolex, TAG, etc, for a comparison to Omega, as well as a global number across the Omega parts account holders, maybe someone in that area can speak up.

    Reminds me of my latest car purchase, it came with 24 years of roadside assistance, at first I though that was great, then I thought of the other side of the situation, maybe the car "needs" 24 years or roadside assistance...depending on your viewpoint can change the perception.

    Regarding watch parts, there are various ways of interpreting the replacement question as well, it can be looked at from a bad side and good side, it all depends on how you look at it, and who's doing the looking.

    Rob
     
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  9. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 14, 2016

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    Some sort of French car? Never heard of any car with 24 years of roadside assistance included. That is impressive...or maybe not depending on your POV. ;)
     
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  10. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 15, 2016

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    More thoughts on this subject...first the only part I replace on every watch I service is the mainspring. If the watch uses a case back seal, I will also always replace that as well. Everything else is based on condition.

    Of course the number of parts replaced varies considerably depending on the watch. Just one example I have in the shop right now is a C-case Constellation, with a Cal. 751. I will be replacing the following on this watch:

    Crystal
    Crown
    Case tube
    Case back gasket
    Pinion for the rotor
    Winding wheel
    Large satellite winding wheel
    Small satellite winding wheel
    Ratchet wheel driving wheel
    Third wheel
    Fourth wheel
    Barrel drum, cover, and arbor
    Mainspring
    Date corrector
    Stem

    Now I won't say that this is typical, because it is more parts than average, but I would say for a watch of this era not having any parts that need replacing would be unusual. Since these movements tend to run and run, even when all the oils are dry, it seems common that train wheels and automatic winding parts need replacing.

    I also just finished a watch with a Cal. 552 (Watchco SM300 actually) that had a very pristine looking movement inside, in fact one of the newest looking I've seen, but again it was completely dry. Not sure how old it is but the outside looks great too. But I still had to replace parts, so:

    Mainspring
    Great wheel
    Third wheel
    Case back seal

    So although the math Rob has done makes some interesting assumptions, more often than not parts need replacing in the movement that are over and above what I always replace.

    Cheers, Al
     
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  11. Banner Roar Feb 15, 2016

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    On threads here there are comments about how a movements look. Where a parts luster/colour is different indicating that the movement has been changed or tampered with. As I don't know what most of the items on your list are or if they are moving parts clearly my knowledge of a mechanical movement is sadly below par. I have seen the video on Desmond's blog but can you recommend a web-site/reference that talks to replacement/wear etc of a mechanical movement. tks M
     
  12. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 15, 2016

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    Aside from the case parts, they are all moving parts inside the watch movement. I don't know what video you are referring to, but I really can't point you to any site that discusses wear parts in a movement, which is probably one reason we are discussing it here.

    If you have specific questions, then please ask them.

    Cheers, Al
     
  13. Mouse_at_Large still immune to Speedmaster attraction Feb 15, 2016

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    It may be that it's Omega's policy to service watches to ensure that, as far as possible, they avoid warranty claims on the work done. I believe this currently is 2 years for a full service? This may lead to a "safety first" policy on parts replacement with a cost implication.
     
  14. Banner Roar Feb 15, 2016

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    For me, I have seen inside the back of watches. I would like my assessment capability to be greater than a magpie 'shinnnnny nnnnnice' ::facepalm2::.
    So, I would like to be able to tell by looking at the movement, if possible, that it needs a service, indications of wear or tell-tale signs that it has been serviced recently. tks
     
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  15. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 15, 2016

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    Maybe beyond the scope of this thread, so let me get some things together that might be helpful in that regard, and I'll create another thread just on this specific subject. It won't be possible to determine the true state of a movement just by looking at photos, but there are certainly things that you can look out for.

    Cheers, Al
     
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  16. Banner Roar Feb 15, 2016

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    Much appreciated Al, tks M
     
  17. Dgercp Feb 15, 2016

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    Great question. For a non-watchmaker type, like me the key is finding a watchmaker that you trust. Omega service would not
    be that person. I want only parts changed that need changing, and not to run up a bill. Luckily, for most of us, the priority is for original dials, hands and case and we care somewhat less about movement parts that have been replaced.
     
  18. Horlogerie EU based Professional Watchmaker Feb 15, 2016

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    Actually I made a mistake, it's 24 hour roadside assistance...for 30 years...

    Not a French car but a Mercedes, the argument is that they expect the car to last that long (I hope so).

    Rob
     
  19. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Feb 15, 2016

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    Interesting marketing tactic for sure.
     
  20. robocaspar Feb 15, 2016

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    I believe movement parts are included in full service estimate at brand service centers.

    After all I highly doubt they would completely disassemble the movement to provide an estimate and I've never heard/read of any stories where a service center calls back a customer to inform them of additional costs once the initial estimate was approved.

    As stated by many fellow members, the primary objective of a service center is to return to the customer a watch in as close to factory standards as possible.