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  1. wouter van wijk Jan 15, 2018

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    Hi Guys,

    Mid Novemer 2017 I went to visit a vintage Omega dealer who is in the business for more than 20 years to check out a Speedmaster 125 and trade in my 2016 Speemaster Professional. The new luminova Speemaster Professional did not give me the buzz since I prefer the more warm vintage look.

    I allready knew that the 125 is a big watch and it looked the part, but it did not convince me. I only have 2 watches and I want to wear my vintage watches on a daily basis. So the dealer showed me also a stunning blue Omega Speedmaster TV dial ref. 176.0014.

    But at the table I also asked him if he had some Flightmasters. I just love the 70s big cased funky look combined with 2 cool complications (Chronograpgh and GMT). He first showed his own ones from his collection. One of it NOS with B&P...He also just had received to new ones that would fit my own budget. I fell in love with one at the table since the 145.0026 caliber 911 had brownish sub registers. So we closed the deal. I got €2615 for my Speedmaster Professional and I had to pay an extra €500, since the Speedmaster Professional box had some water stains and the watch case had to get polished. I think it was a quite reasonable deal. On the Multifunction Timegrapher at the dealer the watch had a delay of 23 sec/day. I asked i fit was an acceptable tolerance, and the dealer told me it was OK and that he would give me his standard one year guantee and i fit would become worse I could send the watch back.


    After ten days wearing the watch I contacted the dealer with the following questions:

    Yesterday evening I also noticed what I had not seen before at your home. In good artificial light at home under the hood I noticed that it looks like there is moisture on the inner bezel at 5 and 10.


    It seems as if the closure between glass and cabinet is not good because there are some irregularities (black spots) to see at 5, between 10 and 15, at 25, at 35, at 45, at 50 and 55. It is not reflection.-were those places already there?

    -is this moisture (innerbezel) and oxidation (black spots between cupboard and glass) or is that oil (innerbezel)?

    -Is that place on inner bezel due to a problem?

    -Are all gaskets well?

    -Is the clockwork well checked with 25 sec deviation per day?


    His reply:

    Stains were indeed there - I received pictures from the old owner

    This watch has an original glass with old gasket type which are fat and can "sweat" and that looks like moisture but it is grease from the glass gasket.

    25 seconds a day is allowed for a vintage handwind movement. Will wear the watch and watch it after 10 days because that is the measuring method from Omega.


    He thereby reassured me saying:


    I can only indicate that the watch has had a full check at the Omega Service and the clock has been found to be good and for this a 12 month warranty is issued.

    Of course it is solved and if the deviation is too large I send the watch back (tot he Omega service center) to solve the problem.


    After 2 weeks wearing the watch, the delay became worse 7- 8 minutes over 14 days= 30-34 seconds/day. So I contacted the dealer again and he was very OK wit hit and asked me to send the watch back for free. He arranged it and the accuracy was with a max. deviation of 4sec. with an amplitude of+/- 269 grd. Problem solved. The oild leak want a really big



    But after one week wearing the watch the chrono started sweeping. So again I sent it back. This was a bigger issue I figured out and he could not do this by him self. So he had to contact his watchmaker. His watchmaker is really good in what he does, THE or one of the best certified Omega watch repairers in the Netherlands. For privacy reasons I dont call names. After Christmas holidays the dealer contacted me that he wanted to trade my own watch for a diffrent Flightmaster:



    “I think, a very nice solution for the Issue with the Flightmaster. I got in very nice Flightmaster yesterday and immediately thought of you to solve the problem. Just look at the photos in the appendix. This flightmaster is in a particularly beautiful original condition and even has the original hands and of course the tritium dial. My proposal is to exchange this Flightmaster and get your Flightmaster back. Think about it but I think it's a perfect solution.”




    I really would appreciate if you guys can chime in and give your advise, lessons or opinion. I think the dealer is reasonble in all of its communication. He gives me 2 solutions for this issue: repair or trade. What would you do? Both watches look good and both have their (dis)advantages.

    The brown sub registerd Flightmaster with all the wristshots is mine and the grey one (pics P1280265-P1280274) with the white background is the proposed trade

    Brown +: great patina with brown sub registers, original condition, Omega Holzer bracelet, faded lume plots
    Grey+: great overall look and patina, great original case, orginal 1162 bracelet
    Brown-/-: oil stains on inner bezel, irregularities on glass gasket, no paint on pushers, faded lume plots and faded /stained markers
    Grey -/- caseback looks a bit polished, not that much paint on all pushers

    So what would you do; stick with the brownish Flightmaster or do a trade?

    Many thanks!
     
    20171209_093129.jpg 20171209_093136.jpg IMG_4608.jpg IMG_4623.jpg IMG_4748.jpg IMG_4540.jpg IMG_4541.jpg IMG_4539.jpg IMG_4538.jpg IMG_4535.jpg IMG_4537.jpg IMG_4536.jpg IMG_4533.jpg IMG_4532.jpg IMG_4529.jpg IMG_4528.jpg IMG_4526.jpg IMG_4527.jpg IMG_4525.jpg IMG_4522.jpg IMG_4519.jpg P1280265.JPG P1280266.JPG P1280267.JPG P1280268.JPG P1280269.JPG P1280270.JPG P1280271.JPG P1280272.JPG P1280273.JPG P1280274.JPG
    Edited Jan 15, 2018
  2. Canuck Jan 15, 2018

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    Are you certain any suggestion you might receive here would make you any happier than would any decision you might make for yourself? Pretty much on your own on this one. I’d have kept the one you traded, speaking personally. In order to end up with the sort of perfection I suspect that you seek, it might mean an expensive trip to Omega.
     
  3. Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Jan 15, 2018

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    What you have here is an honest watch that has a wonderful presence and patina.

    Quite why the watch was sold to you without a full service is beyond me. (If a dealer cannot service a watch, just what are they for.) That so called inspection and guarantee are so much puff and nonsense it beggars belief that anyone with an ounce of integrity can offer it.

    All you need to do is get it properly serviced by a vintage dude. www.simonfreesewatchmakers.com is my choice but there are others including wwwswisstimeservices.com. Both of whom could refinish the case but I would NOT DO THAT. Your watch has a loveley dial and patina. I do not know if it is correct, but to me it looks a lovely vintage piece, that would be ruined if Omega serviced it.

    Flightmasters might be about to see a surge in interest, and therefore value. (New book, low price, currently a narrow appeal).

    I think getting rid of this one fast could lead to later regret.

    I suggest you service, and grow to love its imperfections of age.
     
  4. wouter van wijk Jan 15, 2018

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    Thanks @Canuck and @Spacefruit for your much appreciated opinions!

    I am aware that a watch case service does decrease the value although this service center does watch case laser welding as well as the original sunburst polishing. I think a newish looking case with a patina dial looks awkward too.

    Looking forward for the Flightmaster Only book.

    Also it is questionable if the suggested traded Flightmaster has had a recent service at this supposed Omega Service Center. I guess thats the most important thing here.

    I dont 100% trust the dealer by his word over here. If he shows me a service bill then I will know it for certain. A full Flightmaster chronograph movement service can be quite expensive, also if he has to replace some original parts. Perhaps I will have to double check the service center myself to be more certain if my watch allready had receive a service as alleged by the dealer.
     
  5. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jan 15, 2018

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    I would be very surprised if an Omega service center (or any decent/competent watchmaker) would have left the residue on the inner bezel when doing a service. Also the low amplitude and high beat error are signs that the watch hasn't likely been serviced recently. If it was, I would not let that watchmaker work on it again...
     
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  6. wouter van wijk Jan 15, 2018

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    spot on there
     
  7. Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Jan 15, 2018

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    What the OP actualy says is that the watch was checked (?) by an "Omega Service Centre".

    The guarantee is meaningless - it simply means that if you return the watch the dealer will have it fixed - and not necessarily serviced, and not necessarily by an Omega Service Centre. This is a typical dealer practice of showing willing without actually doing anything - after all many people will not return the watch to them for fixing when it goes wrong, so they save a service cost.

    I bet if you nail him down as to who he actually showed it to, there will be no paper trail, and perhaps not even an Omega Service centre. Perhaps a technician who once worked for Omega. Or a Shop that sold Omegas....
     
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  8. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jan 15, 2018

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    I took this to indicate it had been sent back and worked on to some degree, not just checked...

    "After 2 weeks wearing the watch, the delay became worse 7- 8 minutes over 14 days= 30-34 seconds/day. So I contacted the dealer again and he was very OK wit hit and asked me to send the watch back for free. He arranged it and the accuracy was with a max. deviation of 4sec. with an amplitude of+/- 269 grd. Problem solved."

    Either way it clearly needs a proper service.
     
  9. wouter van wijk Jan 16, 2018

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    Thanks @Archer and @Spacefruit
    These were actually the pictures that he had sent to me after the first complaint. The dealer always has been open to me that he does the fine afjustments by himself. He outsources the bigger issues and toal service to an offical Omega service center.

    So concluding he has only cheked the movement wihtout giving it a proper service and I will contact the dealer, to get it serviced by the Omega service center.

    Another final question?
    Would you guys replace the original pushers? Or would you paint it yourself with enamel paint
     
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  10. Spacefruit Prolific Speedmaster Hoarder Jan 16, 2018

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    Never replace unless you have to!

    If the dealer does his fine adjustments himself the watch needs attention.

    Love to know exactly who the omega service centre the dealer refers to is.

    I bet a pound to a penny it’s not an official Omega service centre.
     
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  11. cristos71 Jan 16, 2018

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    Is there even an official Omega service centre in NL for vintage calibres? As the others have said the dealer is all bluff and hot air, I don't believe this watch has ever been near an Omega service centre, be it in NL or anywhere else. Everytime you send it back I'll bet he or his WM are tinkering with it to avoid the cost of a full overhaul which it sounds like it needs.

    I'm in NL, can you PM me the dealer's details as well as the name of his WM and the service centre he's using? I'm curious if it is someone I know...
     
  12. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jan 16, 2018

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    Lift angle is set incorrectly on the timing machine, so the balance amplitude is even lower than what is displayed - take another 10 to 12 degrees off what is shown there, so more like high 250's rather than 260's. Definitely in need of service if the watch is fully wound.
     
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  13. wouter van wijk Jan 16, 2018

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  14. tyrantlizardrex Jan 16, 2018

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    Hey @wouter van wijk

    Owning a couple of flightmasters, and having handled many more, the marks on the bezel are typically caused by the residue of a degraded seal - what a watch maker has used to remove the seal/how much there was stuck on the inner bezel can very much affect the way the bezel looks.

    I've also had both of mine serviced by Swiss Time Services - these watches are considered an Omega Cat 4, so at the more expensive end (towards £500 per service, including pushers, crowns, crystal).

    In your shoes, I would be asking the dealer for money to go and get this serviced by someone you trust... he's already behaving in a way which would make me feel uncomfortable.

    best

    Chris
     
  15. wouter van wijk Jan 16, 2018

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    @tyrantlizardrex thanks Chris!

    It's really evident thant none of you guys tend to advise to swap the watch.

    I will give the dealer a call. And I will make sure that the watch goes to the proper service center since I will hand the watch over by myself.

    Best, Wouter
     
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  16. wouter van wijk Jan 17, 2018

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    I do not want to tell names out in the open on the most reknown Omega forum since it's easy to ruin someone's repuatation online without giving them any kind of option for an online defense and this can backfire to me.

    The dealer has been in the business from the late 90s. To me he is quite honest. But he is a dealer, buys and sells alot and perhaps he made a kind of mistake to sell me a non serviced watch but a watch only checked by a service center. Probably the dealer himself or even his watchmakers has checked the watch but did not service it properly. Otherwise the watch would have run more accuratly when I had bought the watch. If this actually happened the dealer had to clarify the difference between a check and a service from the beginning since I made clear I planned to use this watch as a daily wearer.

    During the trade we actually talked for 3 hours. I am quite interested to make a business out of watches also. I am in the mids of doing a due dilligence in buying a watch shop from a guy who wants to retire in my old birth city in, the Netherlands. Another option is to start an online business in vintage and independent watches which I do love most. But that is another story though...

    The dealer actually told me that he works alot with Ron Sonders (www.sonders.nl). This guy is an actual OMEGA authorised service centre https://www.omegawatches.com/custom...vice-centre/country/netherlands/city/leusden/ This Ron Sonders has a very good repuation on Dutch watch fora and he has done alot of advanced watchmaking courses and is a Omega certified level 3 watchmaker (I am not sur, but could be even level 4).

    I listened to some advise from the online watch family and tend to buy the seller and not the watch. I am aware that sellers make mistakes deliberately and undeliberately. I will give the dealer the benefit of the doubt since he is open to solve these problems. For me actually it is most important that the watch works and that the watch is reliable. I have the 12 month guarantuee and this watch has to work.

    As mentioned earlier, I arrived at the dealer to buy a Speedmaster 125. After asking around he also showed me some other watches as mentioned in the OP. At the table I have made the decision after like 2 or 3 hours talking late in the evening to go for this particular watch. The seller told me that this watch just had came in, he was clear about that, so I could have concluded that this watch might not be proper serviced. But either way as a trader you can better give every watch a service and complete overhaul instead of a check up. If you dont do that, just make sure you clarify about the service history. The dealer told me he gave me a 12 month guarantee on this Omega service center check up. Maybe we both acted to fast and were a bit stuck in the moment. Lesson learned;-)

    Thanks for all the lovely advise. I am kind of OCD passionate about watches. But I have always kept some constraints investment wise due to my professional and family obligations. I have advised some friends in buying watches. But now its time to take the deep dive. I will get a serious watch library (Moonwatch Only, Rolex etc allready bought the Rossler Zenith book), do more research and invest in inventory.

    I can call his watchmaker to make a double check. But I first will give the dealer a chance to answer my questions and considerations.
     
    Edited Jan 17, 2018
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