Why you want an Extract of the Archives When I bought my first vintage Omega Speedmaster, I wanted to know more about this specific watch. Information on the Speedmaster I could find on-line or in magazines, but I was curious to learn about the history of my own Speedmaster. For this, Omega – and a […]

The post Omega’s Extract Of The Archives – How It Works appeared first on Fratello Watches.

 

Thanks for sharing...excellent story.

 

Thanks for the awesome article. It makes me want to rethink getting one for my baby. Alas though I bought a birth year speedy for an early 40th b'day gift for myself. My145.022-76 has a late 39m serial but a 74 through early 76dial. Better to stay in the dark on this one.

 

Very fun article to read, thank you!

 

Except that Omega's extract page says:

So, if you're in the US, you appear to be screwed.

 

Great article RJ.

 

Thank you for sharing RJ, very cool to get a behind the scenes understanding of how the process works! I really love FratelloWatches and this is a great example why.

 

Very interesting. Thanks.

I haven't ordered one since mine falls around the time where records are not available. Yet the auction houses seem able to get them. I think the article might have shed light on that. Separate records for production and shipping. No records from Lemania, but Omega has the ship to date and destination. I wouldn't mind that information at least.

 

nope...just email this form to:
[email protected]
...and wait.

 

I know it is new to most, and even to the new vintage Museum MD it appears, but the caliber 321, was never produced at Lemania - after 1960
Omega asked Lemaina to develop a new cam-switched caliber for speemaster, and to produce a great number of 321 first - and then were delivered and ´packed in bathes in 1960 all together, and then used from 1960 to 1968 - many of them at the same time as Omega delivered the new 861 caliber - and - even the premoon 105.003, was sold from Omega up till 1968 - again at the same time as 145.012 and new 861 caliber watches was sold to re-sellers

Unfortunatly my article is in danish BUT the documentation in form of written answers from Mr John R Diethelm (many years in management of Omega - from the caliber 321 time up til MD of - Omega vintage Museum and resignment in 2007) and the other prominent Omega MD Alain Monachron (signed near all extract for a great number of years and was also present in the 321 time) is in english

I know it may be disturbing that some is in danish - but have not got the time to translate - but here is the part in English, which I hope will be enough to make you understand - that even though microfilms says - delivered from Lemanina in 1965 og 1968 - this is not the real case - as all was delivered in 1960
(and Omega has actually also later in forums confirmed this to be correct)


This part will explain why I contacted Omega as I did not understand the movement reference number I saw on several Speedmasters:

On receiving a Speedmaster 145.012 ST 67 - I wondered why it had a movement number in the range 26 mio which should indicate 1968 but the back said 67 AND the certificate I go from Omega said 1967. A small difference one should think, but if there is a difference, then the fact that it is small may just cover over much bigger differences.

I started corresponding with Omega and their vintage department and museum department

It turns out - that the calibre 321 was produced only until 1960 - and from that year - all calibre 321 was given a number sequence to watch the expected year to be released. As this did not match how they were used, and errors made when picking the next batch, Speedmastes can easily be found with serial numbers which do not at all match the expected production year.

Following this came a long row a mail correspondence - bringing me closer and closer to the answer – and the fact now seems to be that the last 321 left the Lemania factory in 1960.

Therefore the movement number cannot for Speedmasters after 1960 be used to really identify the year of production for the movement – and my guess is, that this can also be the fact before 1960, although Omega claims, the production then, to higher degree followed the actual use of the movements.

I have a speedmaster with 321 - movement produced as described at that latest in 1960 - fitted into a 1967 case and sold in October 1968

It is clear, that the movements for 321 produced at the latest in 1960 in a special process was frozen and then kept on stock till they were used up till late 1968

I have the full correspondence with Omega and the vintage museum in this - but of interest, I anyway copy some of my correspondence with gentlemen from Omega:

The first answer was:

Dear Sir,

In fact the basic production for the movements of cal. 321 was indeed made from 1940 and until 1960 –

-this means, like for the production dates of the cases, that not all movements have been produced at the delivery time; kept in perfect working order (deep-freezing special system), such movements have been produced well in advance and then used, as required for the delivery time as complete watch.
-This explains, therefore, that production dates of cases and movements might be very different on from each other

Best regards
John R. Diethelm
OMEGA MUSEUM - Vintage Information
I asked a bit further into this interesting information, and received an even clearer answer this time:

Dear Mr Hannover,

We have indeed produced all movements of cal. 321 from 1940 until 1960 = total units: 40’800 – when “freezed”, then the movement number was already engraved on each movement plate.

Therefore, the movements were used as required until 1968 when the replacement calibre 861 was gradually introduced. In other words, we had delivered “old” cal. 321 watches at the same time of the “new” references having the new cal. 861. This explains why certain movement numbers were not in “ sequence”.

The only reason for a change of calibre was due to the fact that any repair of the cal. 321 was extremely time consuming – hence, the production of cal. 321 was stopped in 1960 and this calibre was used-up until the replacement cal. 861 was ready for manufacturing; a entire new concept of production had been made and the actual cal. 861 is much easier to repair, without having lost anything of its high chronograph quality.

The movement number cannot be delivered as a continuous sequence and might have been delivered without taking into consideration “when” they were produced. Basically, we never had a continuous numbering of the movements for cal. 321 – a “package” of numbers was then assigned to the production lane, without taking into consideration when they have been produced.

As a matter of policy, the indicated date is the date of shipment of the complete watch and not its production date.

Hope this is now clear for you !Have a nice day

John R. Diethelm
OMEGA MUSEUM - Vintage Information

OMEGA SA
RUE STAMPFLI 96
2500 BIENNE 4
SWITZERLAND
T. +41 (0)32 343 97 04
F. +41 (0)32 343 98 70
I got more curious and wanted to know, it the cases was then also produced over a longer periode, and if the year indication on their back could therefor by wrong. This appeared to be the case, judged from comparing actual watches with the belonging certificate I could receive from Omega.

The conclusion was, that the cases were not necessarily used in accordance with the year indicated on their back.

Once again mr. John R Diethelm was very helpful.

Dear Sir,

We have following information about the production of cases for the OMEGA – Speedmaster:

Thecasesfor the “Moon watch” have not always been produced at the same time as the watches were produced, therefore, you might find in 1968 cases having the ref. 145.012-68 if they have been supplied in the year 1968…otherwise you might find some “older” cases with the reference +145.012-66 ( -67) fitted with a movement having been produced later…
Therefore, the production year of the CASE is not always identical with the production year of the movement or even of the complete watch delivery time.

Best regards
John R. Diethelm
OMEGA MUSEUM - Vintage Information
I could also notice, comparing certificate and watch of a pre.pro reference 105.003 that this was not produced in 1965 as stamped on the case-back, and that it was actually not sold untill 1967, after the introduction of the Pro model
This lead to more questions, not about this reference, and once again the people at Omega were helpful and could tell med, that they had reference 105.003 in their archives as late as 1968.

I finish of with mr.Alain Monachons of Omega´s explaination about the specificproductiontime of reference 105.003

Dear Mr. Hannover,

We are happy to here that you are so interested in the 321 caliber and the “Speedmasters” which used it.

To answer your questions the -65 in the case back refers to the date of manufacture of the case and not the watch as a whole.It is often the case that a large series of cases are made and then used for several years after.

The production date of November 1967 for your watch is correct andwe have found examples of the 105.003 on the archives as late as March 1968.

We have also recently found another set of archives which allow us to tell exactly which dial was fitted to the watch upon delivery and it would appear that the 105.003 was never delivered with the word “Professional” printed on the dial. This was reserved for the .012 series of watches with re-enforced asymmetrical case.

Hopefully this information clears up your questions.

Best regards,
Alain Monachon
OMEGA MUSEUM - Vintage Information
OMEGA SA
RUE STAMPFLI 96
2500 BIENNE 4
SWITZERLAND
T. +41 (0)32 343 92 71
F. +41 (0)32 343 98 70

[email protected]www.omegawatches.com


Info about the devlopment of the 321 from start to finish :
KALIBER 321 and what it was based on:

The calibre 321 is based on a mutual development between Lemania and Omega, carried out by Albert Piquet and Jaques Reymond - first transformed into Omega 27 CH. This was a two subdial version of the movement, without 12 hour subdial.

From 1940 it was developed as three subdial movement including 12 hour chronograph sub-dial.
This was named CH 2712– later CH 27 12 T1 in 1941 and CH 27 12 T2 100% identical with 321 in 1946, and then in 1949 when Omega went over to 3 digit calibre numbering – as Omega 321

The conclusion is, that calibre 321 has been unchanged from 1946, named changed into 321 in 1949, and produced up till 1960.

Caliber 861 was in 1968 replaced by a cam controlled chronograph – Omega 861 – a gilt movement with flat balance and trapeze shaped bridge – replacing the 321’s Y or wishbone shaped bridge.

Later it was rhodinized and changed name to a four digit series – 1861.
Posted byJohn Hannoverat14:52
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....and wait, and wait, and wait.....

 

Moonwatch Only cites this as a misconception. They specifically note the 40,800 quantity and 1960 date. Their research turned up 25,800 produced up to 1960 and 127,500 in total, with an estimate of 80,000 to 85,000 in Speedmasters.

 

Yeah, my Speedy has a 39M serial and -74 case-back, and the Extract dates it to Oct 16, 1976 (right in the middle of the SN estimated date and the case-back stamp date). Interestingly that's the exact day that my saleswoman at the local Rolex AD was born.

 

Thanks more proof that mine was sold in 76.

I assume you have the small S dial then. The S does not drop as far as the tail on the p.

 

Thanks Rob,
Have always toyed with the idea of sending off for an extract. So inspired by this article I did just that.
I guess now its just a case of waiting.
Picked a Speedmaster that I have the original sales Guarantee for so very curious to see what comes back. Thanks for posting.

 

All -74s had the small-S C2 dial, and earlier -76s did as well. There aren't any tall & open S -74s from the factory

 

I'm about to request one for my recently acquired 145.022-68. Can I request for it to include exactly what bracelet it was delivered?
There seems to be various bracelets that could have possibly come from Bienne with this model.
It would be nice to know if mine is original to my particular later serial number, 277xxxxx
I'm well aware that these may have come with various different bracelets, all of which were correct.