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Nice UG on chronocentric... What's the consensus on "prototypes"?

MaiLollo
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Hey guys,

I've seen this ad on chronocentric today, and it peaked my interest. Unfortunately it is really too small for me at 34mm, but the dial looks awesome.

The seller says that it is a prototype since it has no reference number and since the dial is unseen on other examples (but looks kosher overall).

I've created this thread because I've seen a couple of claimed "prototype" dials on Universal Geneves, and I wonder if someone knows wether UG tested watches this way or not.
I've exchanged a couple of emails with the seller and he told me that he hasn't found another one like it in Sala's book, but he's sure the dial is legit.

To be clear: I'm not looking to buy it, I'm just really curious to get a clue of the originality of these random UG prototypes.

HAGWE!

http://chronocentric.com/forums/chronotrader/index.cgi?page=1;md=read;id=68531
IMG_5148.JPG IMG_5149.JPG IMG_5150.JPG
 
Diabolik
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Apart from the obvious issues (hands, crown, mis-matched pushers), there are a lot of other peculiarities that do not stack up. I would like a frontal of dial before airing my reservations. However, one thing to i would like to point out is that just because it does not have a serial number on it does not necessarily make it a prototype.
 
LouS
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what don't you like about the hands?
 
Diabolik
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I would like a full frontal as it is difficult to tell but the register hands seem mismatched. I would have expected leaf rather than straight baton hands as although there are no hard and fast rules, baton hands seem to be popular in late 30s early 40s when bespoke requests were frequent not on what looks like a late 40 early 50s dial.

Additionally, looking through archives, it does seem that silver hands would normally be used on a dark dial, while lighter dials adopted dark hands (contrast to ease reading position I presume).

The square batons on dial is very unusual. However, UG started experimenting with different dial designs around that time. It is specified as a prototype; any further information or proof? . Difficult to ascertain if it is correct but font looks good and . Bottom line is that I am unsure and would rather keep away from a reference that there is little info . ...

upload_2017-4-23_16-49-58.png
 
MaiLollo
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Diabolik Diabolik
I would like a full frontal as it is difficult to tell but the register hands seem mismatched. I would have expected leaf rather than straight baton hands as although there are no hard and fast rules, baton hands seem to be popular in late 30s early 40s when bespoke requests were frequent not on what looks like a late 40 early 50s dial.

Additionally, looking through archives, it does seem that silver hands would normally be used on a dark dial, while lighter dials adopted dark hands (contrast to ease reading position I presume).

The square batons on dial is very unusual. However, UG started experimenting with different dial designs around that time. It is specified as a prototype; any further information or proof? . Difficult to ascertain if it is correct but font looks good and . Bottom line is that I am unsure and would rather keep away from a reference that there is little info . ...

upload_2017-4-23_16-49-58.png

Very interesting reply. Shows how interesting/difficult it is to look at some brands that are mostly undocumented...
It would probably make for a nice daily wear piece
 
LouS
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Also raises the possibility that an excess of caution can cause one to pass opportunities by. In my view, this watch is correct but for the wonky pusher, and is not a prototype (ridiculous, overused word that it is). Dial fonts are fine, as Diabolik observes, and the sticks seem well within the realm of possibility. You'd certainly have a hard time disproving their plausibility given UG's florid inconsistency. The case is documented in Sala.
 
kreyke
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LouS LouS
Also raises the possibility that an excess of caution can cause one to pass opportunities by. In my view, this watch is correct but for the wonky pusher, and is not a prototype (ridiculous, overused word that it is). Dial fonts are fine, as Diabolik observes, and the sticks seem well within the realm of possibility. You'd certainly have a hard time disproving their plausibility given UG's florid inconsistency. The case is documented in Sala.

I am actually considering this purchase and I was about to create a post to ask about this watch until I saw that OP has started it.

The seller provided me with photos of the photos and there is no serial number on it as well.

Are there any other explanations as to why it wouldn't have a serial number on movement/case if it is not a prototype? It is a calibre 283 on the photo he sent me.

I'm not sure if I will be violating any copyright or privacy laws if I post the photo he sent me? lmk if I can post it and I'll happily do so.
 
kreyke
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LouS LouS
Also raises the possibility that an excess of caution can cause one to pass opportunities by. In my view, this watch is correct but for the wonky pusher, and is not a prototype (ridiculous, overused word that it is). Dial fonts are fine, as Diabolik observes, and the sticks seem well within the realm of possibility. You'd certainly have a hard time disproving their plausibility given UG's florid inconsistency. The case is documented in Sala.

Oh and, I'm very inexperienced with UG and I'm just curious how do you know that the pushers are wrong? Any obvious telltale sign or you're just very familiar with the case/Sala's book?

Thanks in advance!
 
LouS
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It was already sold as of this morning.

Top pusher is rounded and worn compared to the bottom.
 
kreyke
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LouS LouS
It was already sold as of this morning.

Top pusher is rounded and worn compared to the bottom.
It's either on hold for me or he might be scamming? I did contact him this morning. Nevertheless it is still offered to me at 2550eur inclusive of shipping.

I checked that the typical uni-compax sells on the bay for about 1000 euros. Given the condition of the case and uniqueness of the dial, I'm sure it commands a premium. I'm not sure if it commands a premium of 1500euros.

Also, the lack of serial number bothers me. Are there any explanations for it if this is not a prototype?
 
kreyke
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Ah. I see what you mean about the pushers. I just thought it was bevelling. Shows how much I need you guys really. Or to save up for a sala book
 
LouS
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kreyke kreyke
It's either on hold for me or he might be scamming? I did contact him this morning. Nevertheless it is still offered to me at 2550eur inclusive of shipping.

I personally doubt a scam, although I don't know the seller. It would be a strange watch to run a scam with.

kreyke kreyke
I checked that the typical uni-compax sells on the bay for about 1000 euros. Given the condition of the case and uniqueness of the dial, I'm sure it commands a premium. I'm not sure if it commands a premium of 1500euros.

In the eye of the beholder. Prices are not in linear proportion with scarcity - there are a ton of other factors, as you see in the variance of opinion between Diabolik and I. Do you believe it is authenti? Are you a gambler? With Universals? I tend to be, with Universals, but not with some other brands which have a more consistent production.

kreyke kreyke
Also, the lack of serial number bothers me. Are there any explanations for it if this is not a prototype?

Bugs me too, but only a little. The rest of the piece hangs together for me.
 
kreyke
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LouS LouS
I personally doubt a scam, although I don't know the seller. It would be a strange watch to run a scam with.



In the eye of the beholder. Prices are not in linear proportion with scarcity - there are a ton of other factors, as you see in the variance of opinion between Diabolik and I. Do you believe it is authenti? Are you a gambler? With Universals? I tend to be, with Universals, but not with some other brands which have a more consistent production.



Bugs me too, but only a little. The rest of the piece hangs together for me.
Thanks for the prompt response.

I do feel that it feels quite authentic but then again, I'm quite inexperienced. I appreciate your inputs though.

Do you come across this style of dials often?
 
LouS
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kreyke kreyke
T

Do you come across this style of dials often?

No. And that's the hook. Why else would you think of laying out 2500 euros for a 34mm watch? Real or not, that's the question and that is the fun.
 
kreyke
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LouS LouS
No. And that's the hook. Why else would you think of laying out 2500 euros for a 34mm watch? Real or not, that's the question and that is the fun.

Sometimes I do stupid things and I need guys like y'all to keep me in check. Slap me in the head to wake me up.

Well. I was low-key hoping that you'd give me a reason not to make the purchase.. Now I have to decide if I want to take my chances. Nevertheless, still really thankful for the advice!
 
LouS
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kreyke kreyke
Sometimes I do stupid things and I need guys like y'all to keep me in check.

If you are looking for the voice of reason, you have come to the wrong place, friend. 😁
 
kreyke
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LouS LouS
If you are looking for the voice of reason, you have come to the wrong place, friend. 😁

I think watch collectors all have a certain degree of irrationality. We kind of enable one another.
 
Larry S
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There is so much about the quality of this piece that rings genuine despite all the issues raised. Its a fine looking watch.
 
kreyke
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Larry S Larry S
There is so much about the quality of this piece that rings genuine. Its a fine looking watch.

And would you think I'm overpaying too much? That is my other main concern. Haha.
 
ELV web
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Baton hands from 815xxx serial (1941). I don't think the watch You want to buy is a prototype but the dial is very pretty and not one I have ever seen before 😉
 
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