Forums Latest Members

My speedy is back in for regulating at OB again for 26 sec/day

  1. ohmzx Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    266
    Likes
    211
    guys,

    Last week my chocolate speedy was running about 31 sec faster per my timing without using any apps. I took it to OB which they only found it to be max at 12 sec/day fast. They checked in multiple orientations of the watch and the 12 was the fastest. So they dialed it down to +6 sec/day per their machine. I took it home with a free omega travel case (happy). The watch is now +26 sec/day.

    I took it back there at the OB again yesterday and they only find it to be +6/day. I dont understand but you know, when you set the watch to the sec and two days after it is a min fast- more or less +30 sec/day- right? So i left it at my OB at the moment hope when it comes back it will be at where this 1863 Lamanier awesome movement supposed to be. I always heard good thing about this movement and my first speedy is giving me little issue. Anyone has similar issues or suggestions? Thanks.
     
    IMG_4644.JPG
  2. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    26,343
    Likes
    65,049
    How often do you wind it?
     
  3. ohmzx Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    266
    Likes
    211
    Every 2 days
     
  4. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    26,343
    Likes
    65,049
    Wind it every day - I'm not surprised it's running fast if you are winding it every 2 days. It was meant to be wound daily.

    Cheers, Al
     
    MRTMan and ohmzx like this.
  5. M'Bob Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    6,344
    Likes
    17,956
    Interesting. In general, after 24 hours of a full wind, do most non-automatics pick up their rate?
     
    ohmzx likes this.
  6. ohmzx Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    266
    Likes
    211
    Thanks Al.

    Rethink about this, sometimes I wound it almost everyday too. Especially when I was timing it.
     
  7. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    26,343
    Likes
    65,049
    It depends on a number of factors, such as the type of regulation system on the watch, and how certain things are set, but very generally, yes as faster rate is common.

    [​IMG]

    Isochronism is the ability of an oscillator to maintain it's frequency, regardless of displacement. In a balance, it's rate related to amplitude, which is affected by torque from the mainspring. As power coming from the mainspring decreases, the amplitude lowers, and with a shorter distance travelled, the frequency picks up.

    Of course a lot goes into preventing that from happening from a design standpoint, but it can't really be completely eliminated.

    Cheers, Al
     
  8. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    26,343
    Likes
    65,049
    Wind it fully every day, around the same time of day for best timing results.
     
    ohmzx likes this.
  9. ohmzx Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    266
    Likes
    211
    Thanks Al, I will do that after I get it back tomorrow.
     
  10. M'Bob Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    6,344
    Likes
    17,956
    Thanks, Al.

    I think...

    image.png
    image.gif
    image.jpeg


    So I'm assuming this is one of the benefits of the automatic, as the mainspring stays more fully wound? But to maintain isochronism in a manual wind, why don't we just top it off during the day, to keep the timekeeping better by maintaining a higher amplitude? Just an issue of convenience, or excessive part wear?
     
    Edited Mar 10, 2017
  11. padders Oooo subtitles! Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    8,931
    Likes
    13,873
    I had big problems of this nature with an 1861 Speedy a short while back. It took STS three tries to regulate it properly after a full service. Sometimes movements can be flakey. It is steady as a rock now.
     
  12. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    26,343
    Likes
    65,049
    Yes, automatics generally have a more constant state of wind if worn regularly, so this helps reduce the drift.

    You could wind many times per day if you wanted, but with all the advances is design and materials, it's really not needed for the first 24 hours in order to meet the specs for the movement.

    Omega allows more Delta (positional variation) at 24 hours than they do at full wind. So for example the 1861 at full wind is allowed to vary 15 seconds over the 3 positions measured at full wind (what happens in the other positions is a whole other discussion we'll set aside for now). 24 hours after full wind that Delta increases to 20 seconds over 3 positions. However If you wind your watch in the morning before putting it on, through the day the amplitude drop won't be huge due to the materials and design of a modern mainspring that gives more constant torque - the torque curve is fairly flat for the first 24 hours, and it's after that where things start to drop. So at 24 hours the timing is starting to drift, but that happens later in the 24 hours, so the proportion of the 24 hours it's running less accurately is relatively small, so the overall impact on daily rate is quite small.

    Cheers, Al
     
    ChrisN, alohatime, noelekal and 3 others like this.
  13. Phil h Punxatawnee Phil - now out of the shadows. Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    31
    Likes
    36
    My tintin has just returned from Omega, it was 30 seconds out per day. The balance with hairspring was replaced under warranty. They measured it as +6 per day.
     
  14. M'Bob Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    6,344
    Likes
    17,956
    Excellent. Many thanks, Al.
     
    ohmzx likes this.
  15. ohmzx Mar 10, 2017

    Posts
    266
    Likes
    211
    was it at +6 before or after the hair spring replacement?
     
  16. Phil h Punxatawnee Phil - now out of the shadows. Mar 11, 2017

    Posts
    31
    Likes
    36
    After, if I am understanding the paperwork. IMG_8668.JPG
     
    ohmzx likes this.
  17. M'Bob Apr 1, 2017

    Posts
    6,344
    Likes
    17,956
    Hi Al,

    I was re-reading this post, and I was wondering: if the timing starts to drift proportionately more after 24 hours of a full wind, to improve isochronism, if they shortened the power reserve to, let's say, 36 hours, couldn't they theoretically use a shorter mainspring, that would deliver a more even torque over the run of that full wind?

    Thanks,

    Bob
     
  18. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Apr 1, 2017

    Posts
    26,343
    Likes
    65,049
    Any mainspring will have variances in the torque delivered, and to keep it simple, the most constant torque is delivered in the middle of the spring. The longer the spring, the longer the middle - the shorter the spring, the shorter the middle. Your solution would make the "problem" worse, not better. The closer you get to being fully unwound, the worse the timekeeping gets. The variation after 24 hours is still quite good - it's at the extreme ends of the spring that the biggest issues can arise in the torque curve.

    Modern springs deliver much more consistent torque than say old blued steel mainsprings do - the shape of the spring and alloys used are far superior. This is why you don't often see devices like Geneva Stop-Work or Fuse used in modern watches. The stop-work is intended to prevent the more variable ends of the spring from being used at all, so it limited the use to the more stable middle portion of the spring - the spring is never fully wound up or fully wound down. The fuse is intended to compensate for the weaker section of the spring by using the mechanical advantage of a pulley system essentially.

    Cheers, Al
     
    M'Bob likes this.
  19. MCG555 Apr 1, 2017

    Posts
    236
    Likes
    280
    The first 38h supposed to be within 5 sec - the worst you get of course in the last 4h.
    The first hours nowadays are also good - every automatic watch is quite often in this position (depending of the movement type of course)
    Spring material can make huge differences.
     
  20. M'Bob Apr 1, 2017

    Posts
    6,344
    Likes
    17,956
    Got it, thanks. Was under the erroneous assumption that these springs started at a particular torque level, and then it was steadily down-hill from there.