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  1. awesomemonkey Mar 2, 2019

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    Hi all - a newbie here, not exactly sure of all the rules and so-on just yet, so please forgive any misgivings!

    I'm here to ask for some advice on whether an item I'm currently considering sounds reasonable - and I guess, importantly if I've missed something that may land me a costly mistake.

    A little background: I've always loved the look of the Speedmaster Professional. It's my 'one day' watch. Just recently an article popped up in a newsfeed and there was a piece on Speedmasters that began that interesting wander that only Google can take you on, trawling page after page of watches... It then crossed my mind to have a search for the vintage from my birth year: 1977.

    And this is where my 'one day' watch, became my 'you might have to purchase one today' watch.

    I discovered only two (not on eBay, I hasten to add). The first, a digital Speedmaster - not one I'd seen before (not to my taste), and a second, regular 1977 Speedmaster Professional.

    Imagine my surprise then, when that second example happens to be... in my hometown (imagine also, my wife's suprise (I'm pretty sure it was surprise)).

    So I contact the Seller - we are meeting this week (he may even exist in this forum amongst the members, I have no idea) - but this is where I'd like to ask everyone's opinion...

    He offers a 145.022-74 ST on a "vintage style leather strap with Omega pin buckle", listed as 'good condition' (from the images I see evidence of use), serviced 3 years ago. There is the red inner box (style checks out), but no white outer. There are no papers but there is an Extract from the Archive that cross-checks with the movement number on a photo of the workings he has sent me.

    He is asking £4,500 (or thereabouts).

    The factors drawing me in are, of course, the lack of examples from this year that I can find available, and the bizarrely close proximity to me - I can actually go have a look/feel - it's possibly one of those "is this to good be true?!" moments (and we know what's said about that).

    Anyway, I welcome everyone's help, comments and suggestions.

    Thanking you all in advance.
     
    Screenshot_20190302-114049.png Screenshot_20190302-114044.png Screenshot_20190302-114035.png Screenshot_20190302-114024.png 20190301122555.jpg Screenshot_20190302-120224.png
    Edited Mar 2, 2019
  2. nttisch23 Mar 2, 2019

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    Too pricey, in my opinion. It has an incorrect bezel, needs the B2 style DNN with serif bezel. Head only according to Speedy101 go for about $4k usd. Adding a correct bezel to this will cost around $500+
     
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  3. kingsrider Thank you Sir! May I have another? Mar 2, 2019

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    To much money. Speedmaster101 has this reference at $4000 US for a "good" condition watch. I think that is fairly accurate.
     
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  4. OWa Mar 2, 2019

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    Welcome to OF
    The serial number is pretty late for a 74 Speedmaster. Its more likely thats this is a 76 reference serial. Do you have any pictures from inside the caseback? I hope some more experienced members can make some statements about the movement. The color of the „Delrin“ brake looks pretty odd. The seller states that the movement was serviced recently. Would that part be cleaned or replaced?
    The style of the dial also indicates that this is rather a 76 speedy and not a 74.
    It looks like the dials has som stains on it. I marked some of those in the picture.
    3362BBC8-46FE-4B7E-8F05-5E00966F9AF4.jpeg
    You should really ask for more detailed pictures.
    The case has been polished and the price is quite high. As others stated, the bezel is a newer replacent part.
    Cheers
     
    Edited Mar 2, 2019
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  5. awesomemonkey Mar 2, 2019

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    Hi everyone, thank you for the information so far - I can't honestly say I've understood everything(!), but I'm certainly going to go and start researching what you've said.

    Clearly you all feel the price is too high: I did wonder if it was too much money - I had already looked on Speedmaster 101 and I'd seen those estimates...

    As for the detail, well my god you guys are on it!

    So, to run throu: OWa, you say it's more probably a 76. From the information I have, he doesn't mention anywhere other than the ad description that it is a 74. So it may have been a typo on his part; I will certainly ask for a photo of the case back. Tbh, if its a 74 or a 76, I wouldn't mind, it's the the year of production that I'm interested in (and of course, provided is not a Frankenstein!). The seller did assure me it was original, so I'll ask him.

    Next, you say it's been polished. Can I ask how you can tell that? Secondly, is that a problem? (Does that affect / reduce value?)

    Ok, now the complicated bit: Nttisch23, you mention the bezel is incorrect. Is that because I mentioned it were a 74? If it were a 76 as Owa suggests, would it be the correct bezel? (I'm going to look up that bezel and check the differences).

    (Thank you all!)
     
  6. awesomemonkey Mar 2, 2019

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    Owa, I've just noticed the extra bit to your post - I didn't notice the 'staining' at all (thank you for the marked up image-a real help) when I get a hands-on look, I will certainly check this. Might it indicate a leak or do you think maybe something else?

    I will also ask about the delrin brake - it should be white?
     
  7. OWa Mar 2, 2019

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    Polishing reduces the value from a collectors point of view. Such a process is removing original material from a case. You can see it on the lugs. On an unpolished case those are recognizably sharper.
    Speedmaster101.com is a great source to start you education about Speedmasters. This pages also covers the 145.022-76: http://speedmaster101.com/145-022/145-022-71-74-76-78/

    The bezel is not period correct for a 145.022 regardless of the reference and is a modern replacement part. The plastic Delrin brake is usually more white. This „plastic“ part would be correct for a 76 and later production 74 speedies.
     
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  8. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Mar 2, 2019

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    Serial number correct for a 77 production 145.022-76. Caseback should state 145.022-76.

    It has the later -76 dial which my data says is wrong for that production date but is consistent with a dial replacement when the bezel was swapped. As that dial went into the mid 80’s.

    So it’s high for what it is from a collectors standpoint in my opinion. But it is a verified birthyear movement. I will note that at this time both “bibles” for this watch state the dial is correct for a 145.022-76 (made from 1976 through 1979). My data has not been considered into either of those 2 sources. I am confident that the dial change occurred in Sept of 1977 in the factory. Note the dial difference is limited to the “S” in speedmaster, and its size and vertical placement.
     
    Edited Mar 2, 2019
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  9. awesomemonkey Mar 2, 2019

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    Ok, Nttisch23 / Owa, I just looked up the bezel / face differences and I completely understand.

    And now looking this up, I do recall when I was checking this watch out originally, looking up the serial number, etc. etc. I had noticed the long 'S' and how it cross-matched with the serial as a 76. I completely missed that the ad said 74, and it's only now since you've all pointed it out, that it is clearly advertised wrong!

    ...I just hope a case-back verifies a typo and it's nothing more.

    And Foo2rama (thank you for joining in the convo!) / OWa you're both suggesting a replacement bezel. When I looked on Speedmaster 101, it looked correct to my undrained eye - the dot by the 70, for example - can I ask what about it indicates an 80s replacement?
     
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  10. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Mar 2, 2019

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    The bezel is a mid 80’s bezel. And read above my edited post about the dial.
     
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  11. OWa Mar 2, 2019

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    An original bezel for a 76 should look like this:

    28659656-1CCF-420E-ACE3-70A18BE25CFB.jpeg
    The your bezel type looks like a B5 type which started in 1995. Accented E and dot above the 1 on of 190.
    @Foo2rama is really knowledgeable on 76 speedy dials. You should listen to his opinion on this.
     
  12. awesomemonkey Mar 2, 2019

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    Foo2rama: firstly, I hate - and apologies for - my ignorance on this! I'm really reading carefully what you've written and trying to understand...

    So if I'm right, what you're saying is: when the bezel was switched in the 80s (presumably during a service, or whatever), the dial was also changed with a dial that is correct for the model, but NOT correct for the year of production ('77), i.e. a newer dial.

    Definitely seems expensive with that being the case...

    OWa thank you for clarifying the collector standpoint on polishing - definitely makes sense. I had been reading the site you suggest previously, but when there's so much to take in all at once, and things are so subtle they so easy to miss (as you're all pointing out so easily!!)
     
  13. awesomemonkey Mar 2, 2019

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    Oh I really am! To all of your opinions!
     
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  14. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Mar 2, 2019

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    We are getting into a grey area on the dial. A watch made in 1977 should have a 145.022-76 caseback as denoted on the inside of the caseback. A 145.022-74 was produced in 1974-75.

    The 145.022-76 has 2 dial executions that have a minor difference. Basically the relation of the S to the P in speedmaster. The later execution has the bottom of the S match the bottom of the p I call it a drop S dial. Neither MWO (Moon Watch Only the massive tome) or speedmaster101.com place a change over date on the dial. I purchased a Birth year (1976) watch for myself under what was considered an early piece at the time as the early dial was only early 1976 production. With the data from ilovemyspeedmster.com in regards to production times, it became obvious mine was a 1977 production, and I decided to track all the -76 productions with extracts and which dial they have. My data of over 30 pieces shows a hard changeover to the new dial (drop S) in september of 1977. This watch has obviously been serviced and as such is not reliable in showing the later dial earlier in production. This Drop S dial existed into 1990, it is also called the C3 dial in MWO. My feelings and data on this have not been have not been examined by the authors of MWO nor speedmaster101.com, and as they are somewhat boring years to the big collectors it is not a priority, and as such is not considered gospel in regards to this reference. So the dial is and is not correct for the reference, depending on who you ask and what information source is used, the question is if my data nailing down the change is accepted, but currently that dial is considered correct for any 1977 production 145.022-76

    Now this watch clearly shows a 1977-1990 production dial, and a bezel that was 1995-2004 aka the b5 bezel. So at some point there is no question it has had parts replaced. If the guy selling it is saying its a 74 while he has an extract that states 77, it would tell me that the caseback states its a 145.022-74 which means now at least 2 of the parts are wrong the bezel and caseback, and I personally feel that it is a dial added later being a third.

    The movement appears consistant for a delrin brake 1977 production.

    2 ways this could have happened, it was serviced by an independent watchmaker where it received parts from his stock, or it was serviced twice and received the new bezel and my assumption of a new dial at different times. At some point in service the caseback was swapped with another watch, which has been known to happen. Swapping of dials is not uncommon in tritium watches as the tritium lume wears out and no longer glows after about 5 years. Bezels that had wear on them would also be swapped out to make the watch more attractive.

    The other way this watch could exist is what we call a bitsa. The watch contains bits of pieces of multiple watches or service parts stockpiled and put together to increase the value of individual pieces. This is not uncommon to have been done by some dealers and watchmakers.

    I hope that helps and makes sense.
     
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  15. awesomemonkey Mar 2, 2019

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    Foo2rama: what fabulous knowledge and a fantastic explication, thank you everso much. And yes, it does make sense and it will certainly be relevant a I continue to look about.

    I have actually received the picture of the inside cover... Unfortunately it appears it wasn't a typo. It says 145022-74 ST, not 76. The watch could be a Bitsa, but who's to say...

    The Seller told me he had aquired the watch from a friend who had bought it from the original owner back in the 90s. There's no paperwork to speak of, aside from the Archive Extract, so there's no trace. I guess anything could have happened during services and so on, as you rightly say...

    I think this all boils down to the fact that this watch probably isn't the one for me. Unless there is some way to justify this as an acceptable purchase?

    I'm not a collector, but I feel that if I'm only going to do it once, it may as well be for the right piece.

    And thank you everyone for all of your knowledge. I hope you won't mind me popping back in the future if I find something else. This has been an insanely useful learning experience!
     
    20190302230809.jpg
    Edited Mar 3, 2019
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  16. Foo2rama Keeps his worms in a ball instead of a can. Mar 2, 2019

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    Your very welcome.

    Stick around we are mostly pretty good guys ;)

    My ghost bezel 145.022-76 “Birthyear” watch.
    68925ACE-F6D1-414D-8955-BA6906599553.jpeg
     
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  17. awesomemonkey Mar 2, 2019

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    I think I might just do that

    I can see lots of what we've discussed in your picture alone - and nice to see it being worn than hidden away.

    Ok, well, if anyone sees a 1977 piece that ticks all the boxes, please do get in touch, I'd really appreciate the help.

    Cheers all ✌️

    Phil
     
  18. rob#1 Mar 2, 2019

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    This is a great example of a highly informative and interesting thread. If anyone wanted proof of how useful and helpful this forum is, and how knowledgeable and friendly its members are, this is a prime example. Congratulations to all.
     
  19. OWa Mar 3, 2019

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    It is also a good example of a friendly new member!
    There is a nice story about a 76 speedy from Fratellowatches. This watch is good example how it should look like.
    https://omegaforums.net/threads/the...5-022-76-that-took-me-15-years-to-find.89359/
    https://www.fratellowatches.com/omega-speedmaster-145022-76/

    There are very high chances that a speedy is not listed as a 1977 production piece on auction sites or sites like chrono24 since an Omega Exract of the Archive (https://www.omegawatches.com/customer-service/extract-of-the-archives) is needed to know this for sure. Many would just list it as a 145.022-76 with a 1976 production date. The website https://www.ilovemyspeedmaster.com/productiondateprediction/ can help you narrow down the production of a watch in question. You can also type in your birthday to get an idea of the serial number range that is highly likely to match. The newer C2 dial type can also be an indicator for you.

    Good luck on your search!
     
    Edited Mar 3, 2019
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  20. awesomemonkey Mar 3, 2019

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    Absolutely. In less than 24hrs, I've gone from thinking "Everything appears to check out with this piece... This could just be a miracle!" to "Thank God* I asked here first!" You guys have saved me from something I would have been kicking myself over for a long, long time. So thank you, thank you all! (Just need to work out how to tell the Seller now.....!)

    *Other deities are available

    Aw shucks guys ☺️

    OWa, during my trawl of the internet, I did come across that story of the untouched 76 model - absolutely incredible and what a lovely find for that guy. Maybe there are others... Probably not where I am, but it would be lovely to think! It's really fascinating and I suddenly find myself determined to search for a legitimate '77 (year) with all the correct bits.

    The serial number guide you mention looks like it will be a brilliant tool - I will definitely be checking that frequently. But if a watch for sale doesn't have an Archive Extract, what is the protocol? Should one request it? Or buy the watch and do it myself?

    And I guess finally, you mention Chrono24, and I would feel fairly comfortable purchasing something from there, but are there others you might recommend? (I've always steered clear of eBay/Gumtree, etc. if I'm honest).