Mk1 a386 - comments?

tcsasser · Dec 14, 2017

Hello All,

Thanks much for looking.

This Mk1 a386 has popped up for sale recently and I was hoping to solicit comments as to its condition, and any discrepancies/peculiarities noted by the experts here.

Some initial observationss:
Proper Mk1 HA dial
Dial lume doesn't match hands, appears off in general
Tachy bezel appears to be a later addition
Case definitely polished, but some of the original lug facets remain
Original crown and pushers
Flat caseback appears correct and has a serial number within range of Mk1s

I have an appointment to view the watch this afternoon and will provide an update after seeing her in person.

Thanks again.

MaiLollo · Dec 14, 2017

I think you did good research. The watch looks very good.
Agree that the dial lume looks "suspect", a bit too clean. The fact that it doesn't match the hands is not an issue per sé, I'm usually more worried when I see examples with "perfect" matching patina.
Overall, it looks great, the case is correct for a Mk1 as well. Only downside is, as you've stated, that the case was polished a bit too much (and not so well).

I'm far from being an expert though, just a novice, wait for more feedback, and post a few pics in the flesh as well as the asking price.
It will be easier to help

wkimmd · Dec 14, 2017

I think very dependent on price. These have been SHOOTING up recently, and I think (please don't hurt me me) that these are being sold at much higher prices compared to even just a few months ago...It definitely has seen a polishing wheel - any shots of the watch at a couple of different angles to get a better look at the bevels, lugs?
W

tcsasser · Dec 14, 2017

Asking price is 18.5k USD. Was hoping to negotiate it closer to 17k.

Adding a few more pics.

cell1010 · Dec 14, 2017

I think 18.5 is in and around the current market. A big plus is the original bracelet. I think these ladder bracelets make half the watch. If you shoot it I would definitely get the case professionally refurbished. There are a few guys out there who do an incredible job restoring these cases.

tcsasser · Dec 14, 2017

Doh! Watch was sold before I could see her in person. As a watch buddy once told me: "happens".

::facepalm1::

MaiLollo · Dec 14, 2017

Wow, that sounded expensive 😲

Mlafra · Dec 14, 2017

MaiLollo
Wow, that sounded expensive 😲

quite the opposite actually, the momet I saw it I actally thought it was not only cheap but very cheap and it sold indeed super fast.
The main issue here was the case polishing. The tacky ring insert was probably later and newer compared to the rest of the watch but it is indeed correct and original.
You have to consider that this is a MKI, WAY MORE RARE than MKII and MKIII. My estimate is no more than 200/300 pieces.
MKI means the FIRST of the FIRST, historically super important. They should command a big premium over MKII and MKIII IMHO.
And this was priced relatively competitvely even for an MKII or MKIII, so I am defineitvely not surprised it sold very quickly.
For your refernece the last MKI I saw sold was a couple of month ago and even though it was really spectacular (all correct, case unpolished and great dial and lume) it went for almost 25k EUR, that is pushing 30k USD.

wkimmd · Dec 14, 2017

Mlafra
quite the opposite actually..
And this was priced relatively competitvely even for an MKII or MKIII, so I am defineitvely not surprised it sold very quickly.
For your refernece the last MKI I saw sold was a couple of month ago and even though it was really spectacular (all correct, case unpolished and great dial and lume) it went for almost 25k EUR, that is pushing 30k USD.

😲😲😲

jhross98 · Dec 14, 2017

wkimmd
😲😲😲

curious how people value mk i vs mk ii and iii. . .i like this watch but personally do not value mk i over the others, especially given tachy insert would have been a nonstarter for me. i would much have an unpolished mk iii instead. . .but to teach his own

LouS · Dec 14, 2017

jhross98
curious how people value mk i vs mk ii and iii. . .i like this watch but personally do not value mk i over the others, especially given tachy insert would have been a nonstarter for me. i would much have an unpolished mk iii instead. . .but to teach his own

Fully agree. I have fetishized many a watch detail over the years, but the Mk I thing totally eludes me. The differences from the other production runs seem to me utterly inconsequential.

cell1010 · Dec 15, 2017

I was also a bit surprised to read that there seems to be a big price gap between the MK1 and the rest. I personally don’t think there should be. Condition on the other hand should absolutely command premium and it does. So an absolute mint A386 for € 25k as described, is not out of the world imo...

jhross98 · Dec 15, 2017

I would also contrast the a386 with something like the enicar Sherpa graph
There are real differences between mk I / ii / iii / iv and details are different for each watch. Mk I trades for a huge premium over the others, but the rest seem to trade in a band with condition being paramount.

Just looking at the a386s menta has had this year it would seem that unpolished case drives price more than anything as the other two sold at higher prices than this mk I esp when considering the bracelet

chronoboy64 · Dec 15, 2017

I would also compare with something like Heuer 2446c GMT. The early Mk1 is imo 2,0x plus in comparison with an Mk4 in the same condition (mint). I would also estimate that perfect A386 Mk1 will increase more in value in the future than A386 Mk3 due to their rarity and historical importance for introducing the EP movement. But who knows ...😁

jhross98 · Dec 15, 2017

chronoboy64
I would also compare with something like Heuer 2446c GMT. The early Mk1 is imo 2,0x plus in comparison with an Mk4 in the same condition (mint). I would also estimate that perfect A386 Mk1 will increase more in value in the future than A386 Mk3 due to their rarity and historical importance for introducing the EP movement. But who knows ...😁

i will take the under on this. its like dealers trying to get a premium for FP Journe watches with brass movements
fake news
but that's what makes a market. . .

chronoboy64 · Dec 15, 2017

jhross98
i will take the under on this. its like dealers trying to get a premium for FP Journe watches with brass movements
fake news
but that's what makes a market. . .

Can you please clearly state what you mean ? Do you think, all Heuer 2446c GMT Mks have the same value ?
Yes, as a private collector I have a A386 Mk1 and Mk3. I think it is ok that I share my thoughts here. And I didn´t state that the A386 MK1 is double value of Mk1. I just wanted to give an example for something that you can see all over the vintage market, just look at Omega Speedys. Thanks !

jhross98 · Dec 15, 2017

chronoboy64
Can you please clearly state what you mean ? Do you think, all Heuer 2446c GMT Mks have the same value ?
Yes, as a private collector I have a A386 Mk1 and Mk3. I think it is ok that I share my thoughts here. And I didn´t state that the A386 MK1 is double value of Mk1. I just wanted to give an example for something that you can see all over the vintage market, just look at Omega Speedys. Thanks !

of course it is ok to share your thoughts. i have a different opinion. that is what i mean by "that is what makes a market" -- the market is ultimately the arbiter in whose opinion reflects consensus.

what i mean is. . i see zero evidence that mk1s today get any premium vs mk2 and mk3. menta's own sales this year of 3 a386s in addition to the very high phillips print would appear to bear this out. further, i see no evidence that such a premium will exist in the future

heuer 2446c GMT mk 1 is clearly distinguishable, at a glance vs other mks. a 2998-1 has a base one thousand bezel vs later versions that are b base 500, and different hands. seamaster first executions have different hands and bezels than later models.

to me it is these details that lead earlier versions (along with rarity) to trade at premiums

i see no reason why a basically identical watch a386 mk i will trade at any meaningful premium to mk ii and mk iii, all else being equal. until a few years ago it would seem no one even knew the difference

further, you can go find an a385 or a384 for very low prices today and these are historically important watches.

of course all this can change in the future and that is indeed what makes a market! if you prefer a mk 1 by all means spend your money there.

chronoboy64 · Dec 16, 2017

@jhross98
thanks for your further explainations, I really appriciate that. It seems that there is a bit different approach to vintage watch collecting between US and Europe. There is allready a price gap between Mk1 and Mk3 here that might not exist abroad.
So I still agree with the thoughts of @Mlafra above. He is based in Europe, too.
Good hunting and HAGWE !

Mlafra · Dec 17, 2017

I agree with everybody that conditions trumps everything else: of course a mint (and all correct, with bracelet, maybe box etc..) MKIII will be worth more than an average MKI (with perhaps service parts, etc...), that is true of any watch really. What I mean though is that for the exact same conditios a MKI IMHO is worth more than a MKII or MKIII, mainly because is much much rarer and also because to me it is more historically important. Early = more value in many many cases. You can see this in many brands, especially (but nt only) in Rolex.
20y ago a Sub was a Sub, or a GMT was a GMT, or a manual Daytona a manual Daytona, very few people know about the difference between an underline dial vs no underline, double swiss, a close vs open chapter ring, pointy vs square crown guards, etc... but as years went by and scholarship increased and went deep into details the price and value difference emerged, A LOT.
Take a Speedy 2995-1 or 2995-2: they are IDENTICAL, literally. But the -1 is no question worth more. And they are indeed absolutely the same, a part from that -1 vs -2 on the inside of the case back.
Or Take a Heuer Monaco 1133b Chronomatic vs a Transitional: a part from the fact the former has Chronomatic written in the dial whereas the second doesn't have it the are pretty much the same: same"color-shifting" metallic blue dial (different to later version), same steel hands.
Which one do you think would be worth way more if auctioned/sold....i think we all know the answer.
It is my opinion that the same is/will be happening with A386.
I also disagree that the MKI is identical to MKII ad MKIII, there are A LOT of differences:
- Difference spacing of the writings on the dial
- Different hour and minute hands (the white spacing between the lume part and the black tip of these 2 hands is much thinner in MKI compared to MKII and MKIII)
- Different (thin) sub dial hands compare to late MKII and all MKIII
- Different case (no "groove"o the lugs in MKI)
- Different case back (inside is engraved differently to MKII and clearly completely different outside to MKIII)
To me these differenes are way more than the ones of other watches where the earlier iterations are worth more.
But, as jhross98 said, the market is always king, so only time will tell.
Me personally, given the choice, I will happly put a premium for a pristine MKI compared to a MKII or MKIII.

jhross98 · Dec 17, 2017

this is a very well thought out post. perhaps the 2998-1 vs 2998-2 analogy will rule the day. but i think we are a long way from that when equally important a384 and a385 are less than new zenith models

i am glad to see the a386 finally get the respect it deserves. . to some extent there are so few of these around in all original / pristine condition, especially when zenith swapped crowns and sub seconds hands, chrono hands, that it is very hard to see a true apples to apples comparisons. but i am pretty voracious when it comes to the a386 watches for sale and thus far i cannot see a mk i premium. but it may emerge over time!

Mlafra
I agree with everybody that conditions trumps everything else: of course a mint (and all correct, with bracelet, maybe box etc..) MKIII will be worth more than an average MKI (with perhaps service parts, etc...), that is true of any watch really. What I mean though is that for the exact same conditios a MKI IMHO is worth more than a MKII or MKIII, mainly because is much much rarer and also because to me it is more historically important. Early = more value in many many cases. You can see this in many brands, especially (but nt only) in Rolex.
20y ago a Sub was a Sub, or a GMT was a GMT, or a manual Daytona a manual Daytona, very few people know about the difference between an underline dial vs no underline, double swiss, a close vs open chapter ring, pointy vs square crown guards, etc... but as years went by and scholarship increased and went deep into details the price and value difference emerged, A LOT.
Take a Speedy 2995-1 or 2995-2: they are IDENTICAL, literally. But the -1 is no question worth more. And they are indeed absolutely the same, a part from that -1 vs -2 on the inside of the case back.
Or Take a Heuer Monaco 1133b Chronomatic vs a Transitional: a part from the fact the former has Chronomatic written in the dial whereas the second doesn't have it the are pretty much the same: same"color-shifting" metallic blue dial (different to later version), same steel hands.
Which one do you think would be worth way more if auctioned/sold....i think we all know the answer.
It is my opinion that the same is/will be happening with A386.
I also disagree that the MKI is identical to MKII ad MKIII, there are A LOT of differences:
- Difference spacing of the writings on the dial
- Different hour and minute hands (the white spacing between the lume part and the black tip of these 2 hands is much thinner in MKI compared to MKII and MKIII)
- Different (thin) sub dial hands compare to late MKII and all MKIII
- Different case (no "groove"o the lugs in MKI)
- Different case back (inside is engraved differently to MKII and clearly completely different outside to MKIII)
To me these differenes are way more than the ones of other watches where the earlier iterations are worth more.
But, as jhross98 said, the market is always king, so only time will tell.
Me personally, given the choice, I will happly put a premium for a pristine MKI compared to a MKII or MKIII.

Mk1 a386 - comments?

tcsasser

MaiLollo

wkimmd

tcsasser

cell1010

tcsasser

MaiLollo

Mlafra

wkimmd

jhross98

LouS

cell1010

jhross98

chronoboy64

jhross98

chronoboy64

jhross98

chronoboy64

Mlafra

jhross98

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