So an interesting conundrum that's rattling around in my head at the moment. I'm in advanced talks to purchase a Tudor MilSub from a fantastic gentleman that's downsizing everything in the house and needs to send it to a new home. I have no doubts as to the provenance of the watch. He was an old navy diver in a foreign navy (don't want to completely tip my hand here until it's mine), and had to turn in his Sub when he left the navy. His friend, however, revealed to him a couple years later that he still had his, but didn't use it anymore and wanted to sell. Apparently, the friend had told the equipment depot that the bracelet broke and the watch fell off during a dive, when in reality he tucked it away for after his service so he'd have a nice diver. The current owner bought it off him to have as a primary dive watch and used it as such until about a decade ago. The guy is 73 now and rarely dives, however, so he said it has sat dormant for a long time and needs a new home. Now to the pertinent part - unfortunately the piece is not a Marine Nationale Submariner (which all had M.N. XX stamped on the caseback), and decommission papers are impossible to obtain since the piece was essentially stolen by the diver that it was originally issued to and this navy has a firm policy that service watches aren't to be sold to the public. The reference and serial check out for pieces that theoretically would have been issued, but beyond the story of the current owner (which I buy into) I have no proof that it was ever directly issued by the navy. Would you pay a premium for the piece knowing the full history but without documentation to prove it? Or would you treat it as just a normal example of that reference in terms of price?
Assuming for starters that the watch is of a reference and serial range that can be accepted as legitimate military issue.. With military marks/engraving and decomission papers (or just papers if no markings were used by the service) - full premium (given condition of course) With military marks/engraving but no papers, less, smaller but still significant premium. No markings or papers... a big gamble and IMO would be a real crapshoot for resale. Good luck with the hunt!
I had a 9411/0 that fell within the range but without the papers or engravings it would not bring any premium. It's a good story but without even a scan of the owner wearing it in military uniform I don't think I'd pay any more than current value of a civilian example.
Yeah, this is the same thing that I was thinking. I basically told the seller as such. Said if he can produce anything to corroborate the story, I'll pay the asking price. If not, the price drops. He and his friend were divers in the Royal Canadian Navy, btw.
I'd say no. It's a eating/having your cake thing, IMO. The cool story might make it easier to sell it, but I wouldn't put value on it, especially after it had changed hands.
Quick question, what do the numbers on the back signify? Would a civilian model have those numbers? If you can validate the watch with a picture or something from the original owner, would that help the cause? Also, what would be considered a premium on this piece?
The numbers on the back are the serial (which matches between the lugs). A civilian number wouldn't have those numbers, but technically any civilian could engrave them on the back on their own. I don't think they would and it wouldn't look that clean, but it's not as clear cut as the Marine Nationale Tudors that have "M.N." and the year stamped on the back. I asked him for a picture if possible, but I'm not hopeful, seeing as how it was 30 years ago. As to price, he's offering it just a little higher than the actual market would dictate for a civilian ref. If it had decommission papers or photographs to back it up, however, it would be worth nearly double. Maybe more. The market for MilSubs is pretty crazy.
Are you buying to keep or resell? If you plan to keep, and the premium is a little over market value, I would buy it all day long with the hope that my research would enable me to prove that it was in fact a military issued piece. I think that based on what you know currently, you should be able to make a strong case based on the provenance. A killer watch either way, and I think that paying a little over market is worth the risk. If you are looking to resell...not so sure.
I honestly don't know. I'm an "opportunistic buyer," and when I saw the listing and RCN initials, I knew that if it could be validated, it was priced low and would be a great piece. I own a 76100 already though, so two lollipops seems excessive.
Well...I may be a buyer I would say buy it, and sell your other lollipop if the new one is a better example.
I lean heavy on the side of not paying a premium without markings and documentation, but if it's just a little higher than market price it might be worth it unless you're looking to buy it for resale.
Well, just as an update - purchased it for what I believe is a fair market price for a non-military issued piece. Now I'm going to try to find some way to authenticate it from a third party! Should be an interesting journey.
Congrats, my gut feeling tells me that you made a wise choice, and that you will find a key piece to the puzzle that will help you authenticate. If not, let me know, as I may be a buyer
Ha, let's hope so. I figure my downside is limited since it was purchased as a normal civilian example, and the upside is that the story could prove to be very, very cool. Just need to find a source within the RCN equipment depot...
