Lubricants?

I have similar feelings, my desires of owning a watch with a co-axial movement are being challenged after seeing how bad that movement turned out....

That is actually debatable if his watches ran without lubrication. There are some theories on this that state there was a film of oil on the parts from how he cleaned them that acted as a lubricant. Also note that Daniels used different materials for the parts than Omega does.

In the Omega co-axial escapement, the lubrication is more for cushioning the impact while running, then for reducing friction.

Cheers, Al

Again that is very much up for debate in my view. There is speculation that residues left on parts after cleaning were acting as the lubrication needed. In any case, it's a moot point with regards to the co-axial as used by Omega.

To be clear on this, what you see in those photos did not come from outside the watch. It is the product of wear from the movement, not dust and dirt coming into the watch.

Cheers, Al

I have original papers from a 1950's LeCoultre that recommended annual servicing. I'm sure that is no longer necessary. I remember that not too long ago it was recommended that all cars get an oil change after the first 1,000 miles in case there were some small filings from the transmission in the reservoir.

My 2015 car's owners manual says not to touch the oil for 10,000 miles unless there is heavy load on the engine or there has been other work done to the drive train.

Times change, techniques change and materials change as well.
gatorcpa

Hi Red,

Can I ask what your agenda is here? I believe you posted very similar remarks on this subject on WUS under the name "hellosailor" about the same time you made the first post about lubricants here - that post says:

"I hear a lot of talk about 'dried' or gummy lubricants, but good modern lubes don't oxidize, or migrate, or evaporate, inside a sealed case at normal temperatures. I suspect a lot of cheap watchbreakers use cheap lubricants and even more use FUD to terrorize folks into lots of unnecessary servicing. Clean? A hermetically sealed container where no dirt can get in?
Find a real professional, not one of the many watchbreakers that pretend to be one. Get it serviced with proper modern lubes and come back in 25 years.(g)"

If that's not you then I apologize, but it seems too close in tone and substance to your post to be pure coincidence.

You can believe whatever you like - I'm not here to change your mind mate. But on the off chance you are not just being a troll, yes please do look up Moebius lubricants. These are lubricants specified by all of Swatch group, so for watches from basic ETA all the way to Breguet, Blancpain, etc. and they are pretty much the industry standard.

As for the oils drying up, and that "moisture" having to go somewhere, please refer to this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drying_oil

Now you mention quartz watches - I am primarily referring to mechanical watches, since that is what I service 99.9% of the time. Quartz watches can go longer between services, partly due to the very short pulses when there is force on the wheel train (usually totals about 7.8 ms for each second the watch ticks). In contrast a mechanical watch has forces on the pivots from the time the watch is wound, and those forces are there even after the watch stops. Although wear isn't happening because there is no movement, the spring really never fully unwinds when a watch stops on it's own, which is why a mainspring must be let down before you disassemble a watch that has stopped.

If you take your watch in the water regularly, getting the seals checked (and if necessary changed) yearly is probably a good idea, but this is not related to the oil in the movement.

Watch oils are very light in terms of viscosity, but also have other properties that are unrelated to viscosity that make them well suited to the job. Unlike most oils that you want to move everywhere possible within a closed system like a gearbox, in a watch you apply minute amounts of oil to specific places, and you don't want it to migrate at all. If it gets on the teeth of wheels (gears) it will likely stop the watch - only the pivots are lubricated in most cases. Watch oil is a very fine balance of using an oil that will protect for a given term, and not bog the watch down due to excessive drag, reduce balance amplitude, cause loss of running time, etc.

In a typical watch service, including lubricants for the gaskets, I will use about 7 different oils and greases.

Now you keep referring to some "lack of knowledge" out there, so can you please clarify what you mean by that? Are you referring to the knowledge of the watchmaker, the school where he/she was taught, or the manufacturer who designs the movements and makes the oil recommendations? Because they all say the same thing about what oils to use and generally how often to service a watch. There are slight variations, so some might say 5 years between service, some 7, but no one I know says 1, or 25 (or 50). Do you really believe there is a "super oil" out there that us watchmakers, watchmaking schools, and watch manufacturers simply are not aware of? If so, that seems a little far fetched to me personally, but again you can believe what you like.

And I fully agree it's tough to find a good "anything" out there, including guys who post random comments with no basis in fact about lubricants on internet watch forums. 😉

j/k

Cheers, Al

Hi Red,

You seem to be to be less about "asking questions" than making assumptions, followed by accusations of ignorance on the part of the entire watch industry, and in particular "watch fixers". You started with a rather odd statement that all watchmakers recommend oils be changed every year, which is simply not the case. Again if you have people telling you this, it is certainly not representative of the entire industry as you keep saying it is.

If you know of these oils that will last 50 years in a watch, then please by all means tell us about them. I can assure you that the watch industry would be very interested in them. For example, Omega bought the rights to the Daniels co-axial escapement, with the primary feature being that the escapement didn't require any lubrication, so service intervals would be extended. Now it's arguable for sure if that was even logical thinking to begin with, since I don't normally get watches on my bench that are there just because of the escapement oiling, and there are many places a watch can fail, not just the escapement. And of course in the end, the co-axial escapement that didn't need oil, requires a lot of oiling, but not for the same reasons a Swiss lever escapement does (it's for impact, not friction). Omega has built a massive marketing campaign over this new escapement that was originally focused on not needing lubrication. Now they have backed off the lubrication aspect of the escapement to a large degree in their marketing, but could you imagine the market share they would gain if they had lubricants in their watches that would last for decades?

Now I'm not a triboligist, but in my former life as an engineer one of many things I did was run the preventative maintenance programs, including things like vibration analysis techniques on machine tools, and I did look after the lubrication schedules of about 1000 machine tools in the factory where I worked (we made bearings, so processes used were everything from machining with CNC and cam/gear driven machines, heat treatment, grinding, honing, assembly) so I have some experience you could say with lubrication of machine tools. Like any machine tool we had, regular changing of lubrication and hydraulic oils were required. There was no magic oil that you could put in a machine and leave there for 50 years.

Since you didn't indicate otherwise, I am assuming the post on WUS is yours. In that post and to an extent here, you seem to be implying there is a bunch of watchmakers who are just cheaping out on oils, and not using the best available because they don't want to pay for them. This also suggests that there are watchmakers out there using better oils, so who are those watchmakers, and what oils are they using? Instead of throwing out vague statements with no basis in fact, why not simply prove what you are saying? What oils does your watchmaker use on mechanical watches?

And you say I'm trying to change the subject - not sure where you get that from. Yes I suggested you are acting like a troll, but I have actually tried to engage in this conversation to give you facts about lubricants, which you seem to dismiss out of hand with your notions that all us watchmakers are just being cheap, and won't use the best oils for some reason. I use the oils the brands recommend/demand I use, as I told you in the first reply. Why do you keep ignoring this?

If you read my posts here and on places like WUS, I do try to help people understand their watches, and I answer a pile of questions every week. Most people are willing to listen to the answers, but if you are not, then there is not much I can do to help you mate.

Cheers, Al

Red - you said this:

"I've heard so many alleged professionals say "Oh, a watch must be serviced every year because the lubricants dry out...""

And then this:

"The yearly business? Find a yellow pages [sic] call authorized service shops, see how many say seven years."

So yes you did not say all, but then how many do you mean? If I am misinterpreting the gist of your arguments here, then please set the record straight with actual numbers or at least what you believe are actual numbers. Even a rough percentage would be great, because you have said the statement is "common" but that is not terribly specific. I know of no fellow professional watchmakers who make such claims (I can't speak for those who are not really professional - and by that I mean formally trained and adhering to some sort modern procedures), and I probably know far more than you do. You say I am distorting your statements, but you are distorting the true reality of the situation in my opinion and experience.

As I said in my first post, if the watchmakers you are using are saying these things, find another watchmaker.

Next one:

"So what incentive would they have to say "Never needs service" ? And cut their own throats?"

Just to clarify, I didn't say it would never need service, just that the oils would last for decades. There is a difference. For certain even if you had lubricants that last say 25 years, watches would still need maintenance in between those times. For a start, quartz watches would still need batteries replaced every few years, and mechanical watches would need all kind of case maintenance, from polishing (those here who want watches unpolished are most certainly the minority in the greater watch world) and crowns, pushers, gaskets etc. would need replacing regularly to maintain water resistance. Yes, service revenues would go down, but I'm quite sure people would pay a huge premium for a watch that could go for longer service intervals. How do I know this? They do it now - look at pricing increases since Omega introduced the co-axial. The only stated benefit of the co-axial by Omega is the longer service interval.

And yes I know Swatch is there to make money - that is the goal of every corporation.

You keep bringing up aerospace applications. Please tell me what lubricants these applications use? What are their physical characteristics and properties? How do you know they are well suited to watches? Have you ever looked at a data sheet for a lubricant to see all the various tests and characteristics that are listed? There are almost endless variables in oils and lubricants, and they are tailored to specific applications. Most people's understanding of oil differences is "synthetic or natural" or "viscosity ranges" but there are many more parameters used to determine what oil is used in a specific application.

Have you looked at the Moebius site? If not here it is:

http://www.moebius-lubricants.ch/en/products/oils

As I've already said the lubricants I use are fully synthetic, not natural oils. Moebius still makes a few natural oils as you can see, but the brands do not use these - only the synthetic oils. Unfortunately they will not supply data sheets - I've asked, although it was a while ago. Maybe you will have better luck, so let us know how you make out.

You probably don't understand that the brands dictate the oils used, at least if you have an account from them and you want to keep it. Even if I did somehow spend the time to find some supposedly superior oil somewhere, would I risk using it in customers watch, and risk having my accounts with the brands closed because I was not using what they say to use? Not likely.

I don't have the means or testing equipment to buy up hundreds of different lubricants, and test them over long periods of time to determine how they will perform. Is that what you expect watchmakers to do?

Cheers, Al

This is certainly true and the information provided by Al is always worth reading and I believe to the latest practises and knowledge. Certainly as a professional in that field, he would expect to be up to date.

I think, Red, if you are questioning why the watch industry doesn't change to DuPont's oils, then it's a bigger question than what the manufacturers recommend. I made a quick scan of the Krytox lubricants and saw nothing particularly suitable. Of course, Dupont could move into the watch world and design specific oils but I suspect there is not enough cash in it.

I am an Aerospace Engineer and have designed structures and mechanisms for use within our atmosphere and in space but am no expert in the field of lubrication. For that, we have a specific discipline and the selection of such things in both aircraft and spacecraft is not trivial. There are many aspects that determine oil choice and you won't easily be able to select from an oil spec just the viscosity, for example.

Cheers, Chris

Red

1) So Al gets some NASA oil ( think hes workshop has a different budget than NASA) and it cost $400 more to oil and service a watch now.
People like you would be the first to carry on about the price..

2) Most of the oils you talk about a fluid filled situations ie) all parts are in a oil.

So you want to see a watch like this

(need someone to photoshop a watch a inch thick with a grease nipple)