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Longines 13 zn 18K Chrono with poorly refinished dial...

  1. tmw57 Nov 30, 2015

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    This was purchased at an allegedly reputable European auction house a few weeks ago. I specifically asked (twice!) if the dial had been refinished. I was assured (twice!) that it was indeed the original finish. They told me their "watchmaker" had confirmed this.

    I have very little knowledge when it comes to Longines Chrono's. But I think that I can recognize a mediocre refinish when I see one. I think the four poorly covered holes were for a "tachymetre ring" that snapped on the dial when the watch was in it's original condition.

    The Auction house is being rather stubborn and delaying repayment until they hear back from Longines. They are sending these pictures and awaiting confirmation from Longines which may take "2-4 months".

    Shouldn't any watchmaker be able to tell that this dial is clearly a refinish?

    All thoughts and opinions are welcome..
     
    DSC_6686.JPG DSC_6694-crop.jpg DSC_6695-crop.jpg DSC_6697-crop.jpg hole at 3.JPG hole at 6.JPG hole at 9.JPG hole at 9-1.JPG hole at 12.JPG
  2. tmw57 Nov 30, 2015

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    I may have to take some better crops so that the holes in the dial at the 4 cardinal points can be better visualized...
     
  3. PHPHD Nov 30, 2015

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    Might be me, but the subdials don't look so good to me.
     
  4. tmw57 Nov 30, 2015

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    No it's not only you. I don't think they look good at all...the minute markers are also pretty bad. And those holes in the dial?
     
  5. BartH Follows a pattern of overpaying Dec 1, 2015

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    Auctionata, right?

    What a sh#t company. I pointed them out that they had a fake LeCoultre Valjoux 72C chrono on sale. They insisted it was real.

    LeCoultre (or JLC) never produced a Valjoux 72C full calendar.

    image.jpg
     
    Edited Dec 1, 2015
    DirtyDozen12 likes this.
  6. BartH Follows a pattern of overpaying Dec 1, 2015

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  7. Traveler Dec 1, 2015

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    Longines Heritage department are very helpful - I had a similar query on a 13ZN, and they said they could authenticate it (or not) if you send it to them in St Imier, which can be done through your local distributor. They said the whole process should take no longer than a few weeks... You have to pay the shipping though, obviously...

    Here's what they said, and the Email address

    [email protected]

    Dear Mr Traveler

    Thank you for your email.

    For your information, shipping costs and possible customs and import duties remain at your charge. The analysis and certificate are free of charge.

    As soon as we receive the watch, it can take 10 to 15 days to analyse it, maybe less.

    We hope this information will be of help to you and remain at your entire disposal for any further information you may need.

    Truly yours,

    Jennifer Bochud
    Brand Heritage

    [​IMG]

    Compagnie des Montres Longines Francillon SA
    CH-2610 Saint-Imier, Switzerland
    Phone +41 32 942 54 06 - Fax +41 32 942 52 39
    Join us on Facebook, Twitter, YouTube

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Traveler Dec 1, 2015

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    PS - contrast this with Omega that charge you $150 for an extract!
     
  9. tmw57 Dec 1, 2015

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    Hi Traveler,

    Thanks for the reply. I would rather the Auction house bear the burden and expense of shipping to Longines, if that is necessary.

    But to my eye this is a clear refinish. Is there anyone reading this who feels it is original?

    Any comments may help me with this very stubborn Auction House. Several years ago I purchased a watch which was similarly and mistakenly described. That Auction house could not have been more concerned or more helpful. They made the return as simple as possible and offered a very nice apology. I would do business with them again in a heartbeat..

    It would be most helpful if a few of you guys would jump on board and offer an opinion (based on my pictures) as to whether this is an original dial or a refinished dial. And whether the four holes at the cardinal points are for a tachymetre ring.

    Best,

    Todd
     
    Mark020 likes this.
  10. tmw57 Dec 1, 2015

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  11. Mlafra Dec 1, 2015

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    Auctionata is all but reliable, I lost count of the times where clearly non original or reprinted dial have described as fully original or of the times they dated wrong a watch...They got slightly better in the last 6 months but still not good at all.
    That being said I think this dial is clearly reprinted or, perhaps, it belonged to some other watch. I have personally never seen a Longines 13zn with a tachy ring. Can it be these 4 holes were actually made to "fix" this non belonging dial to the watch?
    M
     
  12. tmw57 Dec 1, 2015

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    Hi Mlafra,

    From my understanding, and I may be incorrect here, when a dial was fixed to the movement with screws only two screws were used. my watchmaker thinks that a ring of some sort was once attached to this watch.

    He was astonished (as was I) that such a dial was described as "original finish" by an Auction House that had a "watchmaker" look at it!

    Best,
    Todd
     
    Edited Dec 1, 2015
  13. minutenrohr Dec 1, 2015

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    The dial is surely refinished. The counters are ridiculous (small hands also), closed 6 + 9 types (98%-sign for redial), "swiss made" instead of "swiss" (or, better: nothing) - it´s a pity, because someday it was a rare and fine sandwich-dial...

    rgds - h.u.
     
    DirtyDozen12 likes this.
  14. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Dec 1, 2015

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    I agree with @minutenrohr, the sub dials are incorrect and the "swiss made" is uncharacteristic. Furthermore, a 13ZN "sandwich" dial without a "12" and "6" is highly unusual (nonexistent?).

    About the holes, on original examples I have noticed small rivets(?) at the cardinal points. I do not think that some sort of ring attaches to the dial but rather that these rivets are merely part of the 2 level dial construction. Here are some examples for reference.
    http://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=60898090
    https://www.instagram.com/p/50MZOilrKpd4f6TH_9-zgatHS9vjCr16_DAi00/?taken-by=ddw333
    https://www.instagram.com/p/2kCf0jML2S/?taken-by=shinakym
    https://www.instagram.com/p/047FADs-8r/?taken-by=d.kuppe
     
    Edited Dec 1, 2015
    tmw57 likes this.
  15. minutenrohr Dec 1, 2015

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    Right, but that would suggest that the sandwich-construction has also been faked. I´m not sure (???), because the rivets are where they should be.
    Otherwise there is no Sandwich without 6 + 12, neither in Goldbergers book, nor by searching the web...
    It seems that the creativity of dial-fraudulence is growing.
     
    DirtyDozen12 likes this.
  16. DirtyDozen12 Thanks, mystery donor! Dec 1, 2015

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    I agree that it is very ambitious to attempt to create a sandwich dial (and in black no less) but the growing demand for 13ZN's will likely lead to even stranger things in the future.
     
    Edited Dec 1, 2015
  17. tmw57 Dec 1, 2015

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    Thanks minutenrohr and DD,

    I really appreciate this feedback and confirmation

    I find it laughable that the Auction House needs to send pictures of this watch back to Longines to confirm it's been refinished. It does not take a very astute collector to see how obvious it is...And I still cannot believe that their "watchmaker" signed off on this dial as original!

    Has anyone ever had an experience like this with an Auction House? Mistakes happen, but their delays and reluctance to fix this are really infuriating..
     
  18. BartH Follows a pattern of overpaying Dec 1, 2015

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    Subdials look off to me.
     
  19. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Dec 1, 2015

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    Oh yes, no question. This is a redial.

    As with many things, it's better to commit the crime and ask for forgiveness if the buyer catches on than to state it's a redial. More profitable.
     
  20. tmw57 Dec 2, 2015

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    "As with many things, it's better to commit the crime and ask for forgiveness if the buyer catches on than to state it's a redial. More profitable."

    so very true. and so very sad...