In vintage watches, or anything for that matter, there are always people whose knowledge eclipses that of your own. After collecting, buying and selling, watches, guns, antiquities, etc., the one constant is that the more you learn, the more realize what you do not know.

If reading forums equated experience, we would all be pros like Spacefruit, but unfortunately, that is not the case. Experience comes from handling examples, both good and bad, and being able to distinguish the differences between the two based on that real world experience.

The reason I bring this up is that I wanted to get others opinions on their expectations in buying and selling.

I recently sold a watch, a watch that I went over with a loupe, and based on my experience, looked to be in original condition. I took plenty of pictures, and had a thorough write up on the piece. There were issues with the lume on the hands, and the lume plots and dial had a patina and some slight degradation. I described to the best of my abilities and took plenty of pictures to show the issues.

The buyer contacted me via text, and we discussed the watch. Never did he ask to see more pictures or any pointed questions about the lume plots or the watch in general. We agreed on a price, and the watch was shipped and delivered.

Upon receiving the watch, he said that the 12 o'clock lume market was re-glued, and the dark edges were not degradation, but rather glue residue. It could be seen in the pics, and was the exact reason that I pictured, what I thought was patina and degradation. Based on my level of experience, I had no way of knowing it was re-glued--to me it looks like patina and degradation. Everything else about the watch checked out 100%.

A majority of vintage watches have issues, and now that everyone is bogged down in the minutiae, any sale can get hamstrung with "ifs and buts". My question to the forum is when the onus of knowledge and experience falls on the seller and on the buyer. What is acceptable and what is not? We have all been there, buying a watch and neglecting to ask questions or for more pics--how do you handle the situations when something is not as you thought?

I am not talking about clear cut deception, outright lies, fakes or obvious flaws in the watch. I am talking about perceived flaws that only the highest levels of experienced collectors can spot. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

And no, I am not going to post pics of the dial so everyone can call me a mental midget for not seeing the glue...I honestly had no idea.

 

Do you agree the issue was in fact glue related and not degradation? If so, then the watch was not properly described - period. It has nothing to do with honesty or intentions. What would have been your position if you were the Buyer?

Well, it seems you agree with the Buyer.

 

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is how 6 sets of eyes looking at something will see at least 6 different things.

I have only bought watches so far and it was only my second watch that had issues that I felt the seller mis-represented. Also the easy return stuff wasn't so easy.

 

I joined this forum to understand what collectors really know or care about watches. Even if for several reasons I do not work fro private collectors and I do not need to deal with their expectations, it is nevertheless interesting to pay a glance to what is going on in the vintage world.
To my surprise I learned that a lot of attention is paid to lume plots, while, on the contrary, there is very little knowledge, if any, about mechanical issues. Differences in balance wheels, hairsprings and a lot of components from apparently the same calibers go generally unnoticed - with very few but remarkable exceptions (http://orologi.forumfree.it/?t=71905720).
Lume plots, on the contrary, are contantly under the loupe. To be honest, I am surprised. Maybe the reason lays in the fact that this is an aspect that every "expert" feels easy about discussing. And your contribution is very valuable in this respect.
Thank you.

 

This is an interesting thread. I sold a early 60s Longines Admiral on eBay that I had my watchmaker check out before I shipped, just to ensure all was well, as I hadn't worn it since sending it to the US service center for a cert. of authenticity. My watchmaker gave it a thumbs up and I mailed it to Australia the next day. A week later I received positive feedback and assumed all was well. A few days later, I received a message that the watch wasn't keeping time and that he had taken it to his watchmaker who told him it had a broken balance staff and could be repaired for a modest $300.00.
I explained to him that I had the watch checked before shipping and that it was working perfectly. After a couple of days I received notice from eBay that he was returning the watch because I had misrepresented it in the listing. At that point, I had no choice. So his money was returned, as was the watch. I took it to my watchmaker who promptly ordered a NOS balance staff for $10.00, delivered. A few days later, he called to say the watch was ready and that the cost was $40.00, including the part.
My question is: How do I know that the buyer didn't drop the watch which caused the staff to break? What would those of you who sell a lot of watches, do?

 

Thank you. We are working on it, and everything should be fine.

I am not in 100% agreement that is it is glue and not degradation, and that is why I am posing the question. When it comes to the minutiae, not all collectors have the same body of knowledge, and lord knows that you can find issues with any watch, as evident by the Christie's thread. Opinions are like birthdays, and grading condition of a watch is entirely subjective.

6 sets of eyes see 6 different things, and a high end dealer/collector may have a completely different view versus a lowly bottom feeder like myself.

 

I would like to say something if I may? On the odd occasion you and me have not seen eye to eye regarding GMD. However, regarding this post on VINTAGE I am replying to I 100% AGREE WITH YOU AND I FEEL THE SAME WAY. YOUR HONESTY ON THIS THREAD IS PROFOUND AND HONEST. VINTAGE IS AN ONGOING JOURNEY AND THIS INSIGHT MAKES ME PROUD TO BE ON THIS FORUM.

 

That sucks, and is part of the reason I don't like selling on ebay, and especially not overseas. ebay protects the buyer to a fault, and has you over a barrel...learn a lesson and be glad that you got the watch back and had it is easily repaired.

On more than one occasion, I received watches with glaring issues, and been able to work out solutions. There have been times when a seller's ability to describe based on knowledge did not match how I would grade, and knowing they were an honest seller, just took my lick, as it was inconsequential on the watch in the long run.

 

Thank you sir, I appreciate your kind words. We are all constantly learning, and while we may get at odds over opinions, we are still tied to the common bond of being good stewards to the watch collecting community as a whole.

 

Your welcome.

 

I've sold a lot of watches and a fair number overseas and this was the first and only time I ever had a problem. I've never had negative feedback on eBay, here or WUS. I forgot to mention that I feel your pain. That feeling you get when someone implies you haven't been honest, is not pleasant.

 

eBay used to side overwhelmingly with the buyer, but I think that's changing. You may have noticed that for the past year or so, almost every listing for more than $100 has words like "Please look carefully at the pictures, as they are considered part of the description."

I bought a vintage woden tool chest recently. It arrived with a crack in the front panel. I tried to return it and the seller opened a case against me, saying the crack was shown in the listing. The crack was definitely NOT shown in the listing photos, but the seller won the case.

eBay is a very expensive place to sell, and an increasingly risky place to buy. Thank goodness for forums like this one. I know this doesn't solve the current issue, but at least the case isn't being handled by an overworked eBay staffer who handles 100 of these a day and says "Got photos? Seller wins."

 

It's a tough one, but you can only hand over the information that you have.

When selling I include the statement that "the pictures are high resolution and constitute part of the description, if you have any questions, or require more pictures, please contact me before bidding".

Because cosmetically... well a picture is worth 1000 words.

 

quite an interesting topic watchknut!

I haven't sold many watches and I have been fortunate with the ones I have sold that buyers were satisfied with them. I try to be as transparent as possible in the listings and include pictures that highlight any deficiencies that I'm aware of (is there such a thing as being *too* transparent in a FS listing?). This is one of the reasons that I found selling a modern speedmaster more harrowing than a vintage one. Every hairline swirl on a modern piece is declared a deficiency whereas on vintage, it's expected.

As a buyer, I try hard to understand what I'm getting into (especially for the $$$$ that speedies go for these days). I often ask for additional pictures, having them focus on a particular part, angle or perspective that I might find fault with or be concerned about.

I feel for the issue you describe though.. there is definitely some subjectivity in looking at a watch in pictures as compared to handling them, holding them, looking at them under a loop. I have bought some cruddy watches for the very purpose of having a cruddy one in my hands. I can't tell you how much i've learned about watches from having both good ones and bad ones in my hands -- having spare parts doesn't hurt either mind you.

Ultimately, I think each party bears part of the responsibility for a good transaction. Sellers should be honest and transparent about what they're selling, and buyers should take time to do due diligence; ask questions, study pictures, etc. - and the reality is somewhere in the middle there. I have a spectrum of tolerance and it depends a lot on the watch itself. Even having received watches that I wasn't 100% satisfied with, I haven't sent one back either. Nor have I had a watch returned to me... but again, I haven't sold as many as I've acquired.

I hope you're able to work out the issue at hand with the buyer to mutual satisfaction!

 

I appreciate your putting it so eloquently, and your response is incredibly helpful, as it highlights the importance of the buyer putting forth effort as well.

On a separate note, I am sure the end links will be to your satisfaction ...going in the post tomorrow!

 

Well speaking as a recent first time buyer, I sure as hell asked a lot of questions amd searched forum posts before pulling the trigger.. With the understanding that I would not try to return the watch unless something was outright misrepresented.

I agree, there's a difference between a watch in a picture and the same watch in real life.. It's tough to know how that will manifest itself without a lot of experience.

 

It has been a while since I sold a watch, and when I sell here or on WUS I add a 72 hour no questions return, so I don't end up dealing with issues like you explained. I don't recall ever having one returned.

I however, am mostly sure I will never sell a watch on eBay.

I did have an incident where I sold a watch on this message board, it was paid for and as I was shipping it I set the time and the stem broke. UGH. I refunded the buyer, and fortunately he was cool about it.

 

I think it's important to distinguish between empirically observable statements of fact, and statements of opinion. If a seller says certain things like "the bezel is cracked", "the crystal is scratched", "the lume has flaked off the hands", etc, those are facts that pretty much everyone on a forum like this can understand. These facts can't really be misconstrued, especially if they are backed up by high quality photos.

The problem lies with statements like "the lume plots have degraded due to moisture", "the case is unpolished" or "the hands are original". They either contain a subjective element, or are difficult to determine conclusively. Even the opinion of a so-called expert can be questioned by another expert. Then it gets even more complicated: expert opinions are often affected by (conscious or unconscious) bias, either because the expert has a direct financial interest in the transaction, or at least a vested interest in supporting the market for his own collection/stock etc.

Wherever opinions creep up into listings or discussions, there is potential for disagreement later on. And buyers are not shy -- they will do anything the can to back out of a sale if they are not happy for any reason whatsoever. This drives sellers into two camps: on the one hand, those who take a "caveat emptor" approach and say almost nothing in their listings, and on the other hand, those who offer a "no questions asked" 3 to 5 day return policy, like Taddyangle. To my mind, any sellers who employ a method somewhere in the middle (and this is probably the vast majority of sellers), have to live with the risk that their transactions may go sour, no matter how good their photos/descriptions and no matter how iron-clad they think their terms & conditions are.

In a perfect world, all sellers would offer "no questions asked" evaluation periods, but in reality they are logistically onerous, they tie up stock, and are probably only reasonable for higher-priced watches sold on platforms like this forum. For lower-priced watches on platforms like eBay, the standard practice is to offer refunds "if not as described", which opens up a can of worms as noted above.

I have a lot of sympathy for these issues because I buy and sell watches all the time using different platforms; I'm also a lawyer so I can't help but spot the risks involved. I hope that you can reach a satisfactory resolution with the buyer...though it sounds like he is being somewhat disingenuous since you say the glue was visible in the photos.