Is Grand Seiko getting better?

Wiz · Aug 1, 2019

Archer
Well, the point I was addressing was this:

"Spring Drive is more accurate than most non-thermally compensated quartz watches because GS make their own crystals and then electrically "age" them for 3 months before selecting them, often achieving accuracy of mere seconds per year rather than per month as specified."

And I've proven that this is a false statement.

I don't think you did. All you proved was that you managed to find one non-therm that had better manufacturers specs, however the reality is that many (many) Spring Drives perform WAY within Seiko's specs, so it may be they're just more conservative with their figures. Like this for example:

The main point I was arguing was that your comment was that Spring Drive isn't as accurate as quartz isn't right - or at least it's misleading because they are as accurate as quartz watches. Maybe not ALL quartz watches sure, we can definitely agree that, but from what I've seen, they are more accurate that "most" non-term-comps, so my statement was not at all false.

Indeed my writing was imprecise, as I was referring the HAQ watches when I said that. It was in response to the claim that the spring drive was "ultra accurate" and again that's not really the case. As I've illustrated the "specially adjusted" 9R15 movement doesn't come close to matching the accuracy of thermocompensated quartz movements, so the argument often made that these are "the most accurate" movements out there is completely false.

I never once said that they are the "the most accurate movements out there". Only that they are more accurate than most non-term quartz movements, which they are as "most" non-therms are not aged and binned. Certainly they are more accurate than any other spring driven mechanical movement out there, which is their real competition as Seiko do normal quartz to compete against other high-end quartz.

Taken out of context I agree it doesn't make any sense. But the Spring Drive is most certainly a quartz movement, and one that is about as inefficient as you can get from a watchmaking point of view. As you have admitted, it uses the same exact quartz crystal technology for timekeeping that a regular analogue quartz watch does, but is powered via mechanical means. It fails to outperform traditional thermocompensated quartz movements that have been around for decades.

It's not out of context, you said spring drive isn't as accurate as quartz - how have I take that out of context? To say it's a quartz watch powered by mechanical means is misleading. That description is accurate for Seiko kinetic but not for Spring Drive. Spring Drive is a fully mechanical action regulated by quartz - very different and should be compared to a mechanical watch not a quartz one.

Take away the quartz crystal and it would not keep time at all, so how it can be viewed as anything but a quartz watch is puzzling.

That's like saying: take away the escapement on a mechanical watch and it would not … In fact, take away the swiss anchor and the Spring Drive brake and you have two watches that will just spin around as fast as friction will allow - same thing.

I don't pretend to be in the minds of the people who came up with this so I'm not sure how you know what their intentions were

By reading what they said! Try these (and the references):

https://www.timepiecechronicle.com/features/2017/8/17/in-depth-the-history-of-grand-and-king-seiko
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/grand-seiko-spring-drive-snowflake-review

Btteries, that wind through the movement of your wrist, and are just as accurate as the spring drive is - those are also quartz watches.

They are not "also" quartz watches, they are simply quartz watches with a different change system, not mechanical watches with a quartz regulated brake to replace the escapement!

Archer · Aug 1, 2019

W Wiz
I don't think you did. All you proved was that you managed to find one non-therm that had better manufacturers specs,

Not one, virtually all Omega quartz watches have better specs than the 9R65 movement. I was just looking up the Cal. 1441 thermocompensated movement, and it has an procedure for adjustment that says if the monthly gain or loss exceeds 0.8 seconds, it should be adjusted.

W Wiz
however the reality is that many (many) Spring Drives perform WAY within Seiko's specs, so it may be they're just more conservative with their figures.

Or it may be a natural distribution - I know what one I would put my money on. I have seen non-thermocompensated quartz watches that run far better than the -9 to +15 specs also and well under what spring drives are rated for. So the fact that you can find watches of all kinds that perform better than the specs is nothing surprising or unique to spring drive. My own 1971 Speedmaster runs well inside the specs for Omega's COSC watches...so what.

W Wiz
Maybe not ALL quartz watches sure, we can definitely agree that, but from what I've seen, they are more accurate that "most" non-term-comps, so my statement was not at all false.

How many non-thermocompensated quartz watches have you checked the accuracy on? Do you believe you have had more in your hands than I have?

W Wiz
I never once said that they are the "the most accurate movements out there". Only that they are more accurate than most non-term quartz movements, which they are as "most" non-therms are not aged and binned. Certainly they are more accurate than any other spring driven mechanical movement out there, which is their real competition as Seiko do normal quartz to compete against other high-end quartz.

Once again, aging crystals is common in the industry, so your claim that most are not needs proof to take it seriously. And yes, spring drive are more accurate than most other spring driven movements - they should be because they are quartz movements.

W Wiz
To say it's a quartz watch powered by mechanical means is misleading.

No, it's accurate. You even said it yourself:

"it has EXACTLY the same accuracy of quartz because it regulates time in exactly the same way as all quartz watches (by dividing out the vibrations of a quartz crystal)."

W Wiz
That's like saying: take away the escapement on a mechanical watch and it would not … In fact, take away the swiss anchor and the Spring Drive brake and you have two watches that will just spin around as fast as friction will allow - same thing.

Indeed, one is regulated by a quartz crystal, and one by an escapement and balance spring., One is quartz and the other is not. No matter how much you say it isn't, the spring drive is a quartz watch.

W Wiz
By reading what they said! Try these (and the references):

https://www.timepiecechronicle.com/features/2017/8/17/in-depth-the-history-of-grand-and-king-seiko
https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/grand-seiko-spring-drive-snowflake-review

Sorry, no time for that, but the "intention" is irrelevant anyway. I look at what it is, not what you think it was intended to be.

W Wiz
They are not "also" quartz watches, they are simply quartz watches with a different change system, not mechanical watches with a quartz regulated brake to replace the escapement!

We can simply agree to disagree on that one.

robinhook · Aug 1, 2019

guaranteed.rohu
One thing I've personally noticed, I'm not sure if others will agree - grand seiko I think doesn't photograph that well, since so much of their allure and charm sits in the razor sharp polished edges, and how it works in motion. I've been generally a bit unimpressed with many Grand Seiko designs in photos/ads, but then when you handle and see it in person, only then can you see the full glory of the highly mirror-polished edges and how then glint in the light when you move the watch.

This applies to some other watches from other major brands too obviously, but for me none more so than GS!

Absolutely agree! It is especially difficult to take a good picture that somewhat could capture the charm of a GS in person.

To add on to that, my biggest problem with GS is that, if their charm is largely in the sharp/mirror facets and edges, the reflections of lights... its charm is going to be worn out as scratches and dings accumulate. This makes me hesitate to wear it everyday. It just lacks the tool watch feeling, and feels more like a piece of jewelry. It is not something that you can truly enjoy "using" without being extra careful.

jdelcue · Aug 1, 2019

Not sure if they're getting better, but... they've always been cool imho...

That's my 1969 45GS. One of my all-time favourites.

stockae92 · Aug 1, 2019

I am big fan of GS, but seriously, they have to improve their customer service / interaction experience. I got better experience calling my ex-gf trying to see if I can have my fav sweater back.

I wanted to purchase half links for the GS bracelet. I contacted a few AD and they said half links are not available. I emailed Seiko US Corp. I got one email back saying they will look into, then zero update after I send follow up email asking for update.

They simply just can't provide this kind of Fiat dealership service and expect people to pay Maserati price for their products.

Wiz · Aug 1, 2019

Archer
Not one, virtually all Omega quartz watches have better specs than the 9R65 movement. I was just looking up the Cal. 1441 thermocompensated movement, and it has an procedure for adjustment that says if the monthly gain or loss exceeds 0.8 seconds, it should be adjusted.

You're arguing against points that I never made. I never said that SD was more accurate than Omega quartz movements and I clearly and precisely excluded thermo-compensated ones. I have no idea why you're making up stuff to argue against that I didn't say just in an attempt to obscure the original point. What I contradicted was you saying that Spring Drive isn't as accurate as quartz watches, in general, which is clearly nonsense because as I said right at the start, it's exactly as accurate as other non-thermo compensated quartz movements - or more accurate than most of them. Sure, you may be able to find a few high-end non-thrmos that claim a few seconds a month improvement on paper, but if you're going to be pedantic and want to play that game, I'll quote the millions (probably billions) of cheap crap littering eBay and Amazon and on the counter of every filling station in the world. The fact is, you said that they aren't as accurate as quartz moments - not "very high end ones" or specifically Omega ones, and frankly, that's rubbish, because they are more accurate than most non-thermo regulated quartz movements; much more if you include all quartz movements as you did originally and not just high-end ones, as you later and unilaterally added.

How many non-thermocompensated quartz watches have you checked the accuracy on? Do you believe you have had more in your hands than I have?

No idea, but I seriously doubt you've had the time to check the accuracy of 0.0001% of the quartz watches on eBay and Amazon.

Once again, aging crystals is common in the industry, so your claim that most are not needs proof to take it seriously. And yes, spring drive are more accurate than most other spring driven movements - they should be because they are quartz movements.

No, it's common at he luxury end of the market, I know, I have a few, but I never mentioned high end quartz watches and nor did you until after my first post.

No, it's accurate. You even said it yourself:

"it has EXACTLY the same accuracy of quartz because it regulates time in exactly the same way as all quartz watches (by dividing out the vibrations of a quartz crystal)."

Yes, as accurate or more accurate than most NRM, as I said repeatedly - that is entirely correct.

Indeed, one is regulated by a quartz crystal, and one by an escapement and balance spring., One is quartz and the other is not. No matter how much you say it isn't, the spring drive is a quartz watch.

Well, I think you're probably entirely alone in that opinion - or perhaps you can find a respected online review of Spring Drive that agrees with you? I can offer you lots (including the one I posted earlier) that specifically disagree with you, but we are again moving away from the original point and onto something more subjective. The original point was: Spring Drive is not less accurate than quartz movements (in general).

Wiz · Aug 1, 2019

stockae92
I am big fan of GS, but seriously, they have to improve their customer service / interaction experience. I got better experience calling my ex-gf trying to see if I can have my fav sweater back.

I wanted to purchase half links for the GS bracelet. I contacted a few AD and they said half links are not available. I emailed Seiko US Corp. I got one email back saying they will look into, then zero update after I send follow up email asking for update.

They simply just can't provide this kind of Fiat dealership service and expect people to pay Maserati price for their products.

That is a worry and definately a plus for the Omega GMT. I don't think that Seiko boutiques are geared up for the luxury market as you rightly say. I've read a horror story of a bezel on a GS that didn't sit precisely at 12 O'clock, which after 6 months of keeping the watch, Seiko said was "acceptable" 🙄

Edit: This was it 😲

Archer · Aug 1, 2019

W Wiz
You're arguing against points that I never made. I never said that SD was more accurate than Omega quartz movements and I clearly and precisely excluded thermo-compensated ones. I have no idea why you're making up stuff to argue against that I didn't say just in an attempt to obscure the original point.

Not making stuff up - all Omega quartz are equal to or better than the spring drive is for accuracy, and that included non-thermocompensated movements as I've said already. I mentioned the thermocompensated movements to show that in the context of the post that I made my original reply to (context that you ignore) it was stated that spring drive watches are "ultra precise" and they are anything but. There are many quartz watches out there more precise than the spring drive.

W Wiz
What I contradicted was you saying that Spring Drive isn't as accurate as quartz watches, in general, which is clearly nonsense because as I said right at the start, it's exactly as accurate as other non-thermo compensated quartz movements - or more accurate than most of them. Sure, you may be able to find a few high-end non-thrmos that claim a few seconds a month improvement on paper

Again I've given you specific examples, but there are many more. Many ETA quartz movements meet or exceed the SD specs, and even $50 Miyota movements are as good. I am not cherry picking "high end" movements, unless you consider a $50 movement high end. If you dol then so be it.

W Wiz
, but if you're going to be pedantic and want to play that game, I'll quote the millions (probably billions) of cheap crap littering eBay and Amazon and on the counter of every filling station in the world.

I am not speaking to total production numbers, because there are certainly more cheap inaccurate movements out there than accurate ones. I was speaking to the number of specific individual calibers.

W Wiz
No idea, but I seriously doubt you've had the time to check the accuracy of 0.0001% of the quartz watches on eBay and Amazon.

Correct, but I have handled far more than you, both servicing them and testing the accuracy, consumption, etc. Many of these cheap watches exceed the specs by a large margin.

W Wiz
No, it's common at he luxury end of the market, I know, I have a few, but I never mentioned high end quartz watches and nor did you until after my first post.

As soon as you cite a reputable source for the claim that only luxury quartz use aged crystals, I'll take it seriously. Until then you are just repeating something you believe to be true but cannot prove.

W Wiz
Well, I think you're probably entirely alone in that opinion - or perhaps you can find a respected online review of Spring Drive that agrees with you? I can offer you lots (including the one I posted earlier) that specifically disagree with you, but we are again moving away from the original point and onto something more subjective. The original point was: Spring Drive is not less accurate than quartz movements (in general).

I am most certainly not alone. Any watchmaker (and any who are not watchmakers) understands that the defining characteristic of a quartz movement is the fact it has a quartz oscillator that does the timekeeping. Claiming it's something different because of the power source is just nonsensical. Even Seiko says this in their own literature:

"The two key elements behind the function of any watch are its power source and its time control system.

Spring Drive is a unique movement that combines the high torque of a mechanical watch with the high precision integrated circuit (IC) control system of an electronic watch."

The time control system is quartz, and that by definition makes it a quartz watch.

Wiz · Aug 1, 2019

Honestly, you're just trying to put a lot of fluff around and side-track from the original point because you can't bear to be corrected. And it's at that point that a debate should come to an end else by page 9 Godwin's law comes into play and someone is going to mention Hitler 🤦. The bottom line is that my original point was to rebut your comment

it doesn't have the accuracy of quartz even though it's a quartz watch in reality.

That comment is incorrect, emphatically in the first part (even by your own admission as you say it "is" quartz) and very debatably in the second part as no one else of any note who has reviewed Spring Drive agrees with you that it is a "quartz watch in reality". So I'll let you make yourself feel better by having the last word and get on with more important things, like choosing my next GMT.

Archer · Aug 1, 2019

[QUOTE="Wiz, post: 1297296, member: 58041”]And it's at that point that a debate should come to an end else by page 9 Godwin's law comes into play and someone is going to mention Hitler 🤦.[/QUOTE]

You managed to do it on page 8...

Have a good one...

Archer · Aug 2, 2019

Just to add some evidence to this discussion, I went back through some quartz movements that I've worked on over the years, of various qualities. Some are higher end watches, some cheap no name movements. Many of these come from my wife bringing home cheap watches from work colleagues asking me to put new batteries in, or neighbours dropping by with their dead quartz watches, so none of those are high end watches to put it mildly.

The spring drive tolerance for rate is +/- 1 second per day, or for the higher precision version, +/- 0.5 seconds per day. In my experience, many very basic quartz movements meet these standards, but I'll start off with one that doesn't - this is from a Bvlgari I serviced recently, and in the top left corner of the screen in each of these photos is the daily rate in seconds, so this one gains over a second per day:

This is the only quartz watch that I could find in my photo files that was in excess of 1 second per day gain or loss. That is a rare thing to find in my experience, no matter what the quality of the movement is.

Here are some Omegas, which as I've said all have good tolerances for rate:

Vintage Omega Cal. 1437:

Here's a Cartier:

A Tissot:

Couple of Tags:

Victorinox:

Couple of Gucci's:

A Corum:

My own CWC G10:

Seiko chronograph:

Ladies Seiko:

Another Seiko:

Ladies Fossil:

Another Fossil:

Movado chrono:

Another Movado:

Kenneth Cole:

This was a cheap souvenir watch with the Toronto Maple Leafs logo on the dial:

A bunch of no name watches...no markings on the movements:

One of the many "no jewel" movements made by Miyota that can be bought for less than $10:

And another:

This is one of those "Philip Stein" watches with small disks on the case back with "Natural Frequency Technology" that somehow improves your health. Didn't have the heart to tell the guy that the two movements inside can be bought for about $5 each since he paid something like $1500 for this watch:

Here's the second movement:

So when I say that the spring drive isn't anything special in terms of timekeeping when compared to the majority of quartz watches, this is what I base it on. Seeing a ton of quartz watches that cost next to nothing that exceed the timekeeping specs of the spring drive.

Cheers, Al

STANDY · Aug 2, 2019

W Wiz
Spring Drive is a fully mechanical action regulated by quartz - very different and should be compared to a mechanical watch not a quartz one.

This comment by you makes no sense at all,

A fully mechanical action regulated by a Quartz is not fully mechanical 😗

It's a Quartz watch

https://omegaforums.net/threads/sei...d-or-a-serious-improvement.41858/#post-491506

Looks pretty quartz to me in this picture
Where is the spring in Seikos picture below as this picture is taken from the Seiko website explaining the watch in question.

KingCrouchy · Aug 2, 2019

STANDY
This comment by you makes no sense at all,

A fully mechanical action regulated by a Quartz is not fully mechanical 😗

It's a Quartz watch

https://omegaforums.net/threads/sei...d-or-a-serious-improvement.41858/#post-491506

Looks pretty quartz to me in this picture
Where is the spring in Seikos picture below as this picture is taken from the Seiko website explaining the watch in question.

In the case of any other Watch company you are right. But through the magical hands of the Watchmakers of Grand Seiko, that are masters of their craft it becomes a mechanical Watch. Some call it magic, some call it Fanboys.

Archer · Aug 2, 2019

STANDY · Aug 2, 2019

Stufflers Mom · Aug 3, 2019

There's a couple on here that really should book a room, far too much I know best\all for my liking. Sad really.

FinWatch · Aug 3, 2019

GS-watches are simply amazing. My GS is the most accurate watch that I’ve had (Rolex, Omega, Tudor, Oris...). The finishing and the overall quality is superb.
The only thing that is missing is the image of the brand:
It is ”just” a Grand Seiko...

guaranteed.rohu · Aug 4, 2019

Bless the internet for always managing to bring out long and pointless arguments. I feel like 99.9% of the time, these debates just come down to people arguing on technicalities and subjective definitions. Kind reminds me of jordan peterson debates on 'feminism'.

Regardless, a photo of a friend's GS reissue. beautiful watch, may be on the list for daily-dress-beater one day!

CznJ3yU_IAhagI_Kn0P6e29RcGr8rq19tYa7U2vWoSeuyPLPWhqkiQvRaKsaHbJti5RB0_CzZVZfv95frPzhCmZpSWQuD6NSi_BjQxkDyi7sK_h3TIW3q1Jv6FhababmL7ka1DjY4jXTGyYNmbuVdY1A-YuDDISeIoinMbOKq5xNNrYA45se4hwxp2mKV1VMPSwEkdd5eyj91Jd1flLGQ78tlVqRxxKHN--lghZqewgTIGRD-65rY39IHIeIv7YnAsICTLqelvJ7DOEnYWZcFkpkmZeC8GGP3A119T7lAm5Ja8lbhfTMlNeCbqkhGs6tJ5il0taZg-AEa6wS8Tvxck6o_nQ_x1B-AUOh8XcBX5v8KgLRcho7NTXJ1SGcRZjQ8tz_M6MIjiUypVKPxtXmFPAA7vI9AKRCrHBy0euNE1mq5EgUFJJystJV2OtcxeRKhG1e3gaeY4q9_jUjHA6TNtO7j38N7fKxpp7Rh8F2j08RJ4DRxnO0zpxUNJiX0rDZoQx5xMZu49YwkUQMIQ4Ih0IbU9Ht2jHlmT33RF-SC23fMl5cNJAIT9oY87qA7WDi7tm_syZ46w6gZ_qY7jHHQ9NhWfi3EwVoCq7A_5azR2zUBqDZiLvl551pJpRelVWVmIKzxllBT2Vms3RbiwVaML5LUtIE6dtM=w1191-h1588-no

F83 · Aug 4, 2019

Anyone know how much of a hassle getting a Spring Drive serviced is? I have a new Snowflake, kind of curious what to expect when the time comes.

Nobel Prize · Aug 4, 2019

I think Grand Seiko has always been good. Is it getting better? I don’t know, it think it just continues to be excellent.