Is a vintage homage any less of a copy?

gatorcpa · Jul 29, 2019

Rman
There are vintage models that shared parts like UG sub and Technos Skydiver, then there are 'influenced by' and then there is 'crossing the line into IP theft'

In the 1970's Technos made a lot of these types of watches which were a mash-up of styles of other iconic designs.

Remember this one?

Which is a combination of these two?

Given that Technos is also a Swiss company, one would think if there was real “IP theft” as you say, the legal department at Omega at the time would have been all over it.

Given that a Technos sold for about half of a comparable Omega at this time, I doubt too many people were fooled.

It’s also interesting that Technos used mostly ETA movements in their watches and only a few years after all of the above watches were made, Omega used very similar ETA based movements in their watches as well.

Time to put down the “J’accuse” finger for awhile and just enjoy the watches.
gatorcpa

rcs914 · Jul 29, 2019

Copying a design that is not under any sort of copyright or trademark protection is not IP theft in any way, shape, or form. Printing "Rolex" or "Omega" on the dial is.

michael22 · Jul 29, 2019

Rman
Again, folks who buy these 'homage watches' often subconsciously justify their purchases with their POVs and vice versa.

Useing inverted comma's around a phrase distorts its meaning.
What do you actually mean?

Foo2rama · Jul 29, 2019

Re: geometer and speedy

Both singer dials.

Don’t google singer Daytona prototypes.... you might find some interesting designs you see elsewhere.

JwRosenthal · Jul 29, 2019

gatorcpa
In the 1970's Technos made a lot of these types of watches which were a mash-up of styles of other iconic designs.

Remember this one?

Which is a combination of these two?

Given that Technos is also a Swiss company, one would think if there was real “IP theft” as you say, the legal department at Omega at the time would have been all over it.

Given that a Technos sold for about half of a comparable Omega at this time, I doubt too many people were fooled.

It’s also interesting that Technos used mostly ETA movements in their watches and only a few years after all of the above watches were made, Omega used very similar ETA based movements in their watches as well.

Time to put down the “J’accuse” finger for awhile and just enjoy the watches.
gatorcpa

I love this example and it speaks directly to my original intent of the thread. Just becuase it’s a vintage piece, does that make it any less of a “rip-off” of watches that sold for far more? That Technos is good looking-period. But micro brands today get flogged for doing similar things with “grail” pieces despite being clearly labeled as their own product and further giving credence to the pieces to which they are imitating- many aren’t trying to fool anyone.

Rman · Jul 29, 2019

gatorcpa
In the 1970's Technos made a lot of these types of watches which were a mash-up of styles of other iconic designs.

Remember this one?

Hi Evan,

You're always the voice of reason. I think I had a bit much caffeine today, and this was more of a reaction to another thread that was deleted that carried over to here.

The lesson for me here is that it's enough for an icon to stand on its own, it doesn't need defenders against its imitators.

And maybe I have an homage-anger problem.

Cheers

R

JwRosenthal · Jul 29, 2019

This topic is the elephant in the room that nobody likes to talk about. I get it, we don’t want this forum to become WUS with people posting their sub mods- but it is a reality in this hobby that copying other companies styles had been around since the beginning of time (pun intended).

GandOsDad · Jul 29, 2019

Who cares, just buy what you like ....?

Stufflers Mom · Jul 29, 2019

rcs914
Copying a design that is not under any sort of copyright or trademark protection is not IP theft in any way, shape, or form. Printing "Rolex" or "Omega" on the dial is.

Another example could be via the patent that Panerai has on it's crown guard, that's why watch forums tend to frown on the sale of marina militare watches and Richemont could come down heavy on the website for allowing the sale.

tikkathree · Jul 30, 2019

Rman
Again, folks who buy these 'homage watches' often subconsciously justify their purchases with their POVs and vice versa.

See what I've done there? Made your theory 100% inclusive: we're all in - YAY!

Rman · Jul 30, 2019

tikkathree
See what I've done there? Made your theory 100% inclusive: we're all in - YAY!

Homage news! 😉

gatorcpa · Jul 30, 2019

Stufflers Mom
Another example could be via the patent that Panerai has on it's crown guard, that's why watch forums tend to frown on the sale of marina militare watches and Richemont could come down heavy on the website for allowing the sale.

Most of the other watch forums have sponsors which are usually retail jewelers.

I would think that if I were a Panerai dealer, paying good money for a sponsorship, I would not want to see cheaper imitations being featured on my dime.

I think you’re reading way too much into this. You might be one of those Euro-centric types who still believe that Jaeger-LeCoultre actually sued Hamilton for making the Otis model back in the 1930’s (look it up 😉).
gatorcpa

Professor · Jul 30, 2019

Theres always confusion over design elements and patent protection when it comes to vintage products of any kind.
The 1903 Springfield rifle is a case in point.
It had some features in common with the Mauser rifles but was not a copy of those rifles and the features patented by Mauser's American agents, the construction of the magazine and stripper clips and extractor, were manufactured under license with royalties to be paid.
The major feature, the dual opposed locking lugs were not Mauser inventions at all. The first rifle with dual opposed front locking lugs was the US Civil War era Greene rifle. Patent protection having long run out.

Like fire arms almost all mechanical time pieces share features that are no longer under any sort of patent protection.
Of those that share features its not unlikely that they obtained the rights to such features from the same source.

Here's another Pie Pan Dial.

Apparently the pie pan dial watches of Omega and IWC were innovations of the same designer.
"Throughout his career, legendary watch designer Gérald Genta (1931-2011) created some of the most iconic models in the watch world, working with brands from Omega to Audemars Piguet and IWC and eventually establishing an independent brand (now absorbed into Bulgari, one of his other clients) making watches under his own name. It is a testament to the influence of his designs that his watches became hallmarks of their respective brands and remain popular watch styles. Below, we take a look at some of his most notable creations."
https://www.watchtime.com/blog/5-iconic-watches-mind-gerald-genta/

http://users.tpg.com.au/mondodec//Gerald_Genta_Designed_Omega_Constellations.pdf

Stufflers Mom · Aug 1, 2019

gatorcpa
Most of the other watch forums have sponsors which are usually retail jewelers.

I would think that if I were a Panerai dealer, paying good money for a sponsorship, I would not want to see cheaper imitations being featured on my dime.

I think you’re reading way too much into this. You might be one of those Euro-centric types who still believe that Jaeger-LeCoultre actually sued Hamilton for making the Otis model back in the 1930’s (look it up 😉).
gatorcpa

I think it's more that you are just poorly informed, it has nothing to do with any sponsorship deal as Panerai have trademarked the bridge and its crescent shape, and this trademark is now stamped on each watch in the Luminor 1950 range, as such no one is allowed to use it unless under licence.

gatorcpa · Aug 1, 2019

Stufflers Mom
Panerai have trademarked the bridge and its crescent shape, and this trademark is now stamped on each watch in the Luminor 1950 range, as such no one is allowed to use it unless under licence.

I do not doubt you for a moment.

However, show me the lawsuits. They should be public record. The fact is that anyone could produce a watch with a similar bridge, alter the curve or angle by a small amount, and so long as they do not use the Panerai name, it would be costly and difficult for Panerai to do much about it.

With a watch forum, dependent on sponsorship dollars, one phone call or email changes everything.

That’s why I’m glad this one doesn’t accept sponsorships.
gatorcpa

JwRosenthal · Aug 1, 2019

Here’s a great example of a vintage knock-off by a company that has built their fortune on having no imagination (although the new ones a very imaginative albeit hideous).
It’s a Rolex Day/Date at first blush (although day is at the bottom), but the sum of the parts are actually pretty nice-ESPA case I believe, looks to have a decent movement- and is actually attractive. Is it a rip-off, I guess-sure. Is it just different enough to be its own thing...maybe.

JwRosenthal · Aug 1, 2019

Technos does it again- this time they are ripping off Rolex...or are they ripping off Invicta ripping off Rolex...or....

gatorcpa · Aug 1, 2019

Seiko has been doing knock-offs of Rolexes for years.

main-qimg-8d9e5507cc1dffcea9d5b08299b9a971

Both quartz and automatics.

It is what it is.
gatorcpa

Stufflers Mom · Aug 1, 2019

gatorcpa
I do not doubt you for a moment.

However, show me the lawsuits. They should be public record. The fact is that anyone could produce a watch with a similar bridge, alter the curve or angle by a small amount, and so long as they do not use the Panerai name, it would be costly and difficult for Panerai to do much about it.

With a watch forum, dependent on sponsorship dollars, one phone call or email changes everything.

That’s why I’m glad this one doesn’t accept sponsorships.
gatorcpa

Ask and you shall receive, scroll down to the end for the PDF file.

https://www.plainsite.org/dockets/3...ourt/officine-panerai-ag-et-al-v-jeffrey-inc/

Also, I don't know why you are getting confused by watch forum sponsorship deals and TM\copyright violations, they are not related at all.

gatorcpa · Aug 1, 2019

Stufflers Mom
Another example could be via the patent that Panerai has on it's crown guard, that's why watch forums tend to frown on the sale of marina militare watches and Richemont could come down heavy on the website for allowing the sale.

Stufflers Mom
Also, I don't know why you are getting confused by watch forum sponsorship deals and TM\copyright violations, they are not related at all.

You are the one who brought up watch forums.

Watch forums are generally operated for the benefit of their owners and sponsors (Omega Forums being an exception on sponsorships). They have the right to ban anything. I know of several forums that do not even allow linking of outside URL's.

If a forum is sponsored by a watch manufacturer (which a few are), then I can understand the decision not to allow the defendant in a lawsuit, or anyone selling that defendant's brand of watches to sell on their website. If the site is sponsored by an AD, I can see the same thing happening on the grounds that sales of "Homage" watches that are the subject of litigation could damage the AD's business and cause that AD to withdraw their sponsorship.

What I have not heard of is a non-sponsor manufacturer suing a forum for allowing the sale of homage watches where there was no implication that the watch was anything other than what it is. I know there was an issue at one time between eBay and Cartier regarding the use of the word "tank" with respect to listings of small, square watches not manufactured by Cartier. I believe they reached a private settlement on that issue. But eBay is not a watch forum.

Neither is the defendant in the suit you mentioned.
gatorcpa

Is a vintage homage any less of a copy?

gatorcpa

rcs914

michael22

Foo2rama

JwRosenthal

Rman

JwRosenthal

GandOsDad

Stufflers Mom

tikkathree

Rman

gatorcpa

Professor

Stufflers Mom

gatorcpa

JwRosenthal

JwRosenthal

gatorcpa

Stufflers Mom

gatorcpa

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