ID brainteaser: ladies' NOT a chronometer movement

Reynard · Jul 8, 2023

Just wondering if you knowledgeable folks can possibly tell me what this is. Or point me in the right direction. Am having a late night furkle in the internet's Bargain Basement (as you do on a Saturday night), and the movement in a little 1920s (?) ladies watch caught my eye.

Am not having much luck - although that's probably down to my not knowing much about this sort of thing. It's a chronometer, Swiss and small, about 20mm diameter tops. Mainspring barrel is marked with CHRONOMETER and a five-pointed star. To my (admittedly) uneducated eye, it looks like reasonable quality for coffee-and-cake money.

Any ideas? 😕

I've been poking around on Ranfft, but it's like trying to play "pin the tail on the donkey" 😟 But I'd love to know more at any rate.

Canuck · Jul 8, 2023

With 3 adjustments, hardly a chronometer, I’d say!

Reynard · Jul 8, 2023

Well, I'm here to learn... 😟 But then again, if it's not a chronometer, then why would it be stated as such, not only on the mainspring barrel, but also on the dial? 😕

I was under the impression that bog-standard ladies watch movements (i.e. affordable) seem to be largely unadjusted, and this one appears to be adjusted to 3 positions.

Canuck · Jul 8, 2023

Chrono- relating to time.
Meter- to measure.

I suppose every watch is a chronometer in that it measures time. But the term today usually applies to timepieces that are highly accurate, adjusted to 5 or 6 positions (not 3), heat and cold, and isochronism. Total of 8 or 9 adjustments (not 3), micrometer regulator, (or free-sprung), Breguet hairspring (not flat), sweep seconds hand, (not a subsidiary seconds hand). If you can post a picture taken with the dial off, maybe we can tell you more. But it is not a chronometer!

Reynard · Jul 9, 2023

True, fair enough, can't argue with that.

Although you use the the definition as it is today. Does such a narrow and very specific definition still apply to something that's probably as old as you and I combined? It would be like trying to compare a Blower Bentley with a Ferrari 499P, surely?

I don't have the item in hand, it was something I spotted for sale for the price of a coffee and slice of cake and it piqued my curiosity. Have added a couple more pics (including another one of the movement which shows the markings better) from the sales listing. I'd still love to know who made the watch / movement as all my searches are turning up blank. I believe it says Wilea on the dial.

Tony C. · Jul 9, 2023

It's a Mido, or the same (Felsa) base caliber...

Vercingetorix · Jul 9, 2023

Certified chronometers need serial numbers.

gatorcpa · Jul 9, 2023

Obviously this is not a certified chronometer.

The word “chronometer” has been a source of much confusion, particularly in the USA over the years.

Prior to WWII, any watch company could call themselves a “chronometer company”. Ulysse Nardin was famous for this. During this period, UN produced marine chronometers that were fully adjusted, tested and were greatly respected, but most of their wristwatches simply used the company name on the dial without testing.

Other Swiss companies like Omega and Rolex put “chronometer” on the dial and also provided in-house testing results to the purchaser.

After WWII, the Swiss companies set up independent testing facilities to ensure uniformity of standards in the definition of what is a chronometer.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

Canuck · Jul 9, 2023

Reynard
True, fair enough, can't argue with that.

Although you use the the definition as it is today. Does such a narrow and very specific definition still apply to something that's probably as old as you and I combined? It would be like trying to compare a Blower Bentley with a Ferrari 499P, surely?

I don't have the item in hand, it was something I spotted for sale for the price of a coffee and slice of cake and it piqued my curiosity. Have added a couple more pics (including another one of the movement which shows the markings better) from the sales listing. I'd still love to know who made the watch / movement as all my searches are turning up blank. I believe it says Wilea on the dial.

I have nothing more to add. I suggest you review the other salient comments included in this thread.

Reynard · Jul 9, 2023

Tony C.
It's a Mido, or the same (Felsa) base caliber...

That's spot on! 👍 Thank you SO much 😀

Can go and do a bit more looking up now.

Reynard · Jul 9, 2023

gatorcpa
Obviously this is not a certified chronometer.

The word “chronometer” has been a source of much confusion, particularly in the USA over the years.

Prior to WWII, any watch company could call themselves a “chronometer company”. Ulysse Nardin was famous for this. During this period, UN produced marine chronometers that were fully adjusted, tested and were greatly respected, but most of their wristwatches simply used the company name on the dial without testing.

Other Swiss companies like Omega and Rolex put “chronometer” on the dial and also provided in-house testing results to the purchaser.

After WWII, the Swiss companies set up independent testing facilities to ensure uniformity of standards in the definition of what is a chronometer.

Hope this helps,
gatorcpa

Yes, that explanation definitely helps, muchly appreciated. 👍 Sounds like marketing departments (or perhaps the jeweller selling the watch) were laying things on a bit thick, then.

Will amend thread title accordingly. 😟

Deafboy · Jul 9, 2023

In the U.S.A., I don't think a manufacturer ever used the word chronometer to a wristwatch. Like @gatorcpa said, Americans used the term for a marine navigation timekeeper of high precision (marine chronometer). The Hamilton Model 21 is the most famous of those.

The Swiss also developed marine chronometers (in fact, the Hamilton Model 21 is based on a Swiss Ulysse Nardin model).
The Swiss also used the term quite loosely for wristwatches for decades. In the 1940's the Swiss watch industry began to define a few standards of what a wristwatch chronometer should be, that eventually became COSC.

gatorcpa · Jul 9, 2023

Deafboy
In the U.S.A., I don't think the word chronometer ever applied to a wristwatch.

Actually, I was writing about watches like this:

https://www.secondhandhorology.com/products/ulysse-nardin-chronometer-automatic-watch#images-11

As you can see, the watch has the full name of the company (Ulysse Nardin Chronometer Co.), but while there is indication of some adjustments, there is no indication that it was certified by COSC or the manufacturer, or that it met anyone’s standards for chronometer accuracy when new.

You can see how some people could be confused by this.
gatorcpa

Canuck · Jul 9, 2023

gatorcpa
Actually, I was writing about watches like this:

https://www.secondhandhorology.com/products/ulysse-nardin-chronometer-automatic-watch#images-11

As you can see, the watch has the full name of the company (Ulysse Nardin Chronometer Co.), but while there is indication of some adjustments, there is no indication that it was certified by COSC or the manufacturer, or that it met anyone’s standards for chronometer accuracy when new.

You can see how some people could be confused by this.
gatorcpa

A bog stock calibre Felsa 690. One of the very first full rotor automatic wind movement that winds both ways. An excellent watch for that era, but not a chronometer (or chronometre).

sheepdoll · Jul 10, 2023

If you have not found it Ranfft has a parametric search. Click the advance button next to search. Where you search using graphic images of the movement part placements. It is surprisingly effective.

Millions of watches with that bridge layout have been made. I have trays full of such of these as well. A lot of inexpensive (and high end) used something called a cylinder escapement which was easy to mass produce. This was a step above the pin lever escapement.

The watch industry has always been competitive. There is always that image of the guy with dozens of watches pinned inside the coat lurking in the shadows.

Reynard · Jul 10, 2023

Have to say, I had an interesting evening down a rabbit hole last night. But I'll keep my shekels in my pocket this time, though.

So regarding the chronometer labelling, I'd imagine this could be construed as being along similar those watches with bonkers jewel counts - until defined standards were applied. And although that while strictly speaking they're not a chronometer, these movements have had some extra tinkering done over a standard unadjusted one.

Reynard · Jul 10, 2023

sheepdoll
If you have not found it Ranfft has a parametric search. Click the advance button next to search. Where you search using graphic images of the movement part placements. It is surprisingly effective.

Millions of watches with that bridge layout have been made. I have trays full of such of these as well. A lot of inexpensive (and high end) used something called a cylinder escapement which was easy to mass produce. This was a step above the pin lever escapement.

Yes, I did find that, thanks. 😀 Searching by size was also pretty useful.

The watch industry has always been competitive. There is always that image of the guy with dozens of watches pinned inside the coat lurking in the shadows.

The bloke with watches pinned to his coat lining is pretty well much how MuDu-branded watches were sold in the UK in the 50s & 60s. To get around the import taxes, I do believe.

Canuck · Jul 10, 2023

Reynard
Have to say, I had an interesting evening down a rabbit hole last night. But I'll keep my shekels in my pocket this time, though.

So regarding the chronometer labelling, I'd imagine this could be construed as being along similar those watches with bonkers jewel counts - until defined standards were applied. And although that while strictly speaking they're not a chronometer, these movements have had some extra tinkering done over a standard unadjusted one.

Definite standards for chronometers existed for nearly 200 years before the subject watch was made.

Syrte · Jul 11, 2023

@Reynard if you’re ever tempted to go down watch rabbit holes at night, I suggest you read @conelpueblo’s wonderful thread “learn how to fish” and that you keep wisely posting watches on the forum before you pull the trigger. At least until you know more.

I see three major reasons this purchase would have been a complete waste of your money even if it were only 10 dollars:

1/ the dial was likely refinished;
2/ the case is not steel, it’s chrome plated and the chrome is chipping or has worn off on the sides;
3/ the regulator pin (ie the little tail that’s afixed above the balance wheel) is pushed all the way to the side, which means this movement isn’t working so well and you would most definitely incur servicing expenses (without any guarantee the watch will keep good time after that.)

So your 10 dollar watch would cost you 100 to 300 in servicing costs depending on what part of the world you live— and after all that you would still be holding a watch which is worth nothing- due to its other flaws.

If you buy ladies watches you need to really make sure the brand and quality of the watch are worth the ssrvicing expenses, because in most cases they’re probably going to exceed the purchase value of the watch.
You should be aware a lot of your costs will be sunken, and are definitely not an investment— which is how many people justify their purchases of men’s watches.

I suggest you let someone else bear the clutter of the lesser ladies watches- or the task to bin them.

Best regards

Reynard · Jul 11, 2023

Thanks for the heads up @Syrte 😀

Yes, I did read the thread on how to fish when I first discovered the forum (and very enlightening it was too), but it doesn't quite stop those "what on earth's that" moments. You do get to see some odd stuff while scratching around in the bargain basement.

I've actually got a decent local watchmaker who charges a very reasonable £95 for a clean & service, but as you say, it's not worth throwing money at a basket case. I do enjoy looking and learning though - buying is something that happens only rarely, and late 60s / early 70s watches are much more my cup of tea TBH. Largely because they tend to be far less knackered.

I don't mind paying for a service if it's warranted. It's the cost of wearing a watch in the same way that buying things like chains, cassettes, cables and brake blocks make up the running costs of owning several bicycles. OK, the only difference there, is that I do all the work myself.

Investment? Heavens, no, I don't look at them that way at all. They all get worn, enjoyed and used for their intended purpose. I'm often in situations where I can't have a phone or other device to hand, but where I do need to keep track of time. FWIW, other than the ones I've inherited or have owned for many years, my little selection consists of a couple of Tissots, a Girard-Perregaux, a Kelek, a Citizen, a Zitura, two Seikos and the Gradus that got me originally hooked on this whole malarkey in the first place.

ID brainteaser: ladies' NOT a chronometer movement

Reynard

Canuck

Reynard

Canuck

Reynard

Tony C.

Vercingetorix

gatorcpa

Canuck

Reynard

Reynard

Deafboy

gatorcpa

Canuck

sheepdoll

Reynard

Reynard

Canuck

Syrte

Reynard

Similar threads

[Now $700 OBO] 1959 Omega Constellation w/ Railtrack Dial, Steel Case, Special Chronometer Movement

GS 5722 -9990 with unusual 5722b "chronometer" movement

Omega Seamaster 168.023 / 166.032, Caliber 751 Day / Date Chronometer Movement, Just Serviced

1959 Omega Constellation w/ Railtrack Dial & Special Chronometer Movement

FS Vintage Rolex Dennison Cased Chronometer movement 1940's

Anyone ever seen a chronometer dial like this?