I’m very curious. A question for the watchmakers on this forum.

[Faz]

Paging the members of OF who happen to seasoned watchmakers. I’ve always wondered what they thought was the best mechanical watch movement in their opinion? The criteria would be quality, design and performance.

Their choice for an automatic? Manual?

I thank them in advance for their participation!

Cheers

 

[STANDY]

That’s a can of worms that is going to have some answers…. Looking forward to replies.

Went down the same rabbit hole a few years back and it came up with so many variables. (For me it was seeing if the ETA 2824-2 was a worthy movement)
With these 3 criteria
1)Most easily serviceable for years to come. ie Parts Availability, Watch makers able to fix and obtain parts.
2) Most Accurate
3) Most Robust

 

[dsio]

7750 tends to get rather high praise, it was almost ubiquitous in Swiss watches before in house movements began to get more common and has a reputation for durability, reliability and accuracy that tends to be well earned.

 

[rootbeer7]

dsio

7750 tends to get rather high praise, it was almost ubiquitous in Swiss watches before in house movements began to get more common and has a reputation for durability, reliability and accuracy that tends to be well earned.

I’ve had this movement in a Tudor Big Block & now in one of my Panerai (minus chronograph!) robust, incredibly accurate & easily serviced.

 

[Davidt]

STANDY

That’s a can of worms that is going to have some answers…. Looking forward to replies.

Went down the same rabbit hole a few years back and it came up with so many variables. (For me it was seeing if the ETA 2824-2 was a worthy movement)
With these 3 criteria
1)Most easily serviceable for years to come. ie Parts Availability, Watch makers able to fix and obtain parts.
2) Most Accurate
3) Most Robust

So the Rolex 32xx is high on the list!

 

[S.H.]

Faz

The criteria would be quality, design and performance.

Those criteria may be too wide to justify a "best" movement. Movements I like to work on are :

Lemania 1873 / omega 861
Omega 550/560 family
Eta 2824
Valjoux 7750
Some Rolex movements

Why : they work well, they can withstand abuse, they were mass produced so parts are available. I particularly like the quality of the screws in the Omega and Rolex movements. A detail maybe, but well made, well dimensioned screws are a real plus when dealing with old neglected movements, and are pleasurable to work on in any case.

 

[Archer]

This is a very tough question, and I get asked this privately quite often. In order to say what is best, I would have had to work on every movement ever made. Clearly that hasn't been done by me or anyone else, so all opinions given will be limited to what the person giving the opinion is familiar with, and no matter how much we all try, there are biases.

As watchmakers, we don't typically go out searching to service specific movements, so we are limited by something very simple - what our customers ask us to service. Depending on how specialized your work is, you may not see a huge variety of movements. This is why you will find some watchmakers say that the brand they service the most, makes the best movements - they are familiar with them so tend to be biased towards that brand (you see this a fair bit with guys that service mostly or only Rolex).

In my early days I serviced a far wider variety of movements than I do now. Over time as my customer base has been built up, I have become more specialized to Omega - not my choice, it's just how things worked out.

Faz

The criteria would be quality, design and performance.

Taking the above to heart, the ease of service, availability of parts, and many of the other things that as a watchmaker make me appreciate working on a specific movement, have to be set aside if they don't directly influence these three things. That makes it a tougher thing to judge, but here is my best shot...

I am a fan of the 7750, and I think the things that make me a fan, also generally fit the stated criteria very well. It is durable and accurate. Where it may fall down is on "design" but it really depends on what that criteria is referring to. All movements have weak spots and compromises, so the oscillating pinion system on the 7750 isn't ideal and can lead to problems that I see reported on forums (watch stops when chronograph is engaged). Also, the layout of the sub dials on the standard versions may not be to people's liking.

But at this time I cannot think of another movement that would fit the criteria better than the 7750 would.

Now speaking more generally, and directly conflicting with my own top pick, if I were looking for durability long term, I would pick the simplest movement I could find. So no complications, and manual winding. The 6497/6498 are actually very good movements, and if in Top or COSC grade they are very good performers as well. So these would be a close second...but they are not exactly exciting movements.

Yep - tough question...

 

[Dan S]

It's interesting to me that we never see really high end movements (Patek, Lange, etc.) mentioned when this topic arises. Maybe they are mostly serviced in-house, and the independent watchmakers on the forum just don't see enough of them to make a judgement. Or maybe they're just not really any better than common workhorse movements.

I guess this is .

 

[noelekal]

You're a rotten little stirrer Dan.

 

[Archer]

Dan S

It's interesting to me that we never see really high end movements (Patek, Lange, etc.) mentioned when this topic arises. Maybe they are mostly serviced in-house, and the independent watchmakers on the forum just don't see enough of them to make a judgement. Or maybe they're just not really any better than common workhorse movements.

I guess this is .

Well, in order to service the movements, you need access to replacement parts. The fact is most watch companies do not make parts available to anyone outside their service network. It sets up a rather strange situation for independent watchmakers...

Back in the day, companies used to sell parts to any watchmaker that asked. In fact there was a time when (according to some old timers I've spoken to) if you sent a company like Patek a part request, they would even send you one for free, with their compliments. So from that time, parts are still out there - material suppliers have them, watchmakers die off and they get sold off, etc.

But then companies started to limit who could get parts, and eventually many stopped selling them entirely. So there is still a pool of parts out there from when they did sell parts, but those parts are now all for vintage movements.

So right now it's easier for me to get parts for a vintage Patek than it is a new one.

So it's quite possible that Patek makes a movement that would easily surpass what my pick would be, but I'll never see it - as I've said no one has serviced everything, and most have only serviced a small fraction of what is out there.

Lange is a good example - they only became a company again after the trend of not selling parts was already in place, so the chances I'll ever agree to service one (knowing that I cannot get parts) is zero. And I'm okay with that.

 

[Canuck]

I’ll put in a good word for antique watches such as the 16-size, 23-jewel Hamilton 950 or 950B, or the 16-size Waltham Vanguard 23-jewel pocket watch. There’s a fine line between “best”, and “very best” which few of us would care to try to walk. But in terms of performance and aesthetics, there are not too many that exceed these two.

 

[Tony C.]

A small, related anecdote that I've mentioned a few times over the years. I am friendly with a watchmaker in Schaffhausen who worked for IWC for many years, before opening up a shop of his own. He is, needless to say, intimately familiar with the classic Albert Pellaton designed cal. 854x automatic movements, which are widely held in high regard, as well as subsequent high-quality IWC movements. Given that background, I found it very interesting that he speaks very highly of Certina automatic calibers that were manufactured in the '60s (e.g.cal. 25-65x).

He was not suggesting that they are the "best", of course, and they are certainly not highly finished, but given his experience, and technical expertise, I find it to be quite interesting.

 

[Foo2rama]

7750 vs 7s26

fight.

 

[Canuck]

I would suggest the Certina movement you refer to (Kurth Freres) would compare very favourably with most of the medium range watch movements of their era. As to the finish on these movements? In my view, the finish is equal to most better grade watch movements of the era. I have two of them, and they are exceptional (within their class) compared to Rolex, Omega, etc.

Mine was a basket case when I paid $2.00 for it at a farm yard sale. (She was asking 50 cents). It needed a rotor post, mainspring, crown, crystal, recondition, case re-chromed, and dial refinish. Total expenditure? Over $200.00! But I love it!

 

[sheepdoll]

Ol Louis Brandt thought so much of his pocket watch movement he called it the Omega. The 30mm wrist version is a pretty nice watch to work on as well.

If Omega watches were not good watches would they have lasted 175 years. The company has not always been the best run, so the product must be good to account for this.

Never was much of a fan of date and automatic watches. I got a few over the years as the old guys were saying the complications were what made the interesting. Downside is these were intended to be worn everyday.

Since I have a lot of them, I think the A Schild 1187/94 movements are the most underated. Millions were made. A good simple 3 handed lever movement with a large sweep bridge. Easy to work on. Most do not have a fine finish. Parts remain available for the reason @Archer stated. Millions of spares were made. The DWC estate sales and material houses are full of parts. I sort of think these are like the chevy compatible parts one would find in autorepair shops. Many are probably aftermarket.

Some of the Felsa and ETA movements may also be good using the above criteria. I do not have as many Heuer watches as I would like as they tend to sell outside my cheapskate range for impulse purchases. The one I got recently that looked like it was washed up on a Hawaiian beach still ticks. So they are pretty robust for a quartz movement. Eventually I should get a new crystal for it.

The old American pocket watches also have their fans. These also made in the millions. Most of the spares now tend to wind up in steampunk art projects. A cell phone on the other hand makes for a much better pocket watch, so their use is not much in this age.

Few have seen everything there is to see. My mentor liked things like Brequet, Appleton, Tracy and company. We visited places like IWC, JLC and A Lang & sohn. High performance watches seem to be like fancy cars (which I only have an inherited cultural interest in through common knowledge.) Such things are not for everyone. I was always fascinated with the Rock crystal plate watches. Repeaters and ultra complications as well.

This could be why I targeted so many chronographs for my collection. Venus probably is the best deal on these. I think Venus and Valjoux merged. Vajoux parts are the most expensive. Landeron parts the easiest to find. Many of these parts may be aftermarket. I suspect some of the RLX Valjoux parts are aftermarket made on the old equipment.

Of my personal watches I like the Omega chronostop the best. For much of the last 20 years that has been my daily wear watch when I did wear a watch. The other watch I alternated with was a Baylor signed Heuer tripple date. These two were the ones I kept serviced.

Now I have been alternating an A Schild Wakmann and a 17 dollar Goodwill Series 1 Apple watch.

Eventually I will make straps for some of the Omegas I have and put them back into circulation.

 

[WestCoastTime]

Maybe "Best" means "Most Copied", in which case you'd probably be looking for an early 1800's Breguet wristwatch movement (likely commissioned for some now-headless European royal) that rolls up keyless winding, automatic winding, shock protection, & overcoil hairspring.

 

[sheepdoll]

Foo2rama

7750 vs 7s26

fight.

I had to look up 7750. Seems like a nice caliber. The wiki said it was one of the first to use CAD assisted design. Some of the later valjoux movements seem to be Venus based. I think that was the 7730 which is the Venus 180 or 188. Downside to the 7750 though is no pillar wheel. (If the wiki is to be trusted.)

I have a number of Venus 170s which have the pillar wheel and the rocking pinion. These all were complete with cases and such.

I had a bunch of Seiko chrono parts including a plate with the pillar wheel. I sold the parts and bought a bunch of cheap 3 handers with date and auto. Reading the book on the history made me appreciate Seiko all the more. Still when Seko 5s are under 10 bucks it is hard to respect them. Might be cultural bias. Seiko chronos can be had for a few hundred, which is probably a good deal. On the other hand I do keep a weather eye out for an SKX. Which may be one of the most underrated quality watches out there.

Best remains such a subjective term. I suspect that Stradaveri and Bregeut made a few off pieces that are not quite as good as the others. (which may or may not still exists.)

 

[JimInOz]

Foo2rama

7750 vs 7s26

fight.

Yeah! OK buddy, out the back my friend!

7750?
From a "hobby watchmaker" perspective, if you're going to get to chronograph level, this is a good choice to learn on. Parts are reasonably robust, a lot of service guides are available and it doesn't present too many difficulties. I've done a few now and enjoy the relative simplicity of the design.

7S26?
Similar to the 7750, in that it's ubiquitous and used in many (even non-Seiko) watches.
While it isn't a chrono, and lacks manual winding and hacking, it's proved to be a reliable and rugged movement for the cost level it's aimed at.
From a professional watchmaker perspective it's almost a replaceable item, but from my perspective, they are easy to work on and parts are mostly plentiful.

So, after a brawl between 7750 and 7S27, both contenders, exhausted and on their knees, got up and arm in arm, staggered back into the bar to buy each other a beer.