How often do you go 1000 USD + to buy vintage?

chipsotoole · Oct 16, 2018

Hello Omegoids,

I recently , only for the second time in my few watch collecting years, went over 600 USD for a watch this week. 2 years back I bought a Speedmaster Mark II for 1200UKP because I knew I really had to have one. Buying that second piece however came with a lot of humming and aaahing..I resolved to sell a couple of other pieces that weren't of a particularly great quality, scarcity, or standard and not really getting much wrist time by way of justifying my purchase.
This got me thinking a bit about watch collectors , their habits, and their personal price points. Their comfort zones. Me? I'm a self respecting bottom feeder looking for diamonds in the rough, something precious under all that wrist cheese and those scratches...I like a wide variety of dials and styles and look for interesting movements in a brands progression.I don't tend to gather repeat models. In this way I've collected some nice Omega, JLC, Lemania, and AS Schild watches.
One thing I've started noticing however, is the sheer amount of BIN vintage watches, (especially Omega) priced precariously around the 1100-1200 euro mark (allowing for currency translations of course)...The mega priced Breitlings , JLC's , Pateks and other esoterica, can sit in the listings for months if not years waiting to catch the eye of the top 1% of collector buyers. Is this post 1000 USD area the goldilocks zone where quality watches stand a decent chance of being sold.
For the very few of you out there, price is not an issue, you strive for the scarcest, premium best, collector/museum quality of your desires. Others will dig deep for their hearts desire knowing full well that something very valuable in the box/safe will have to go. Others set annual limits of their budgets or the number of watches in their collection and exercise considerable restraint. Some others will forego new cars, annual holidays abroad, even decent meals to get what they want...but everyone has a comfort zone, a price point threshold they are loathe to cross.
I'd hate to be a high end watch dealer sitting on a dozen frighteningly expensive (and overhyped) pieces desperately trying to get a sale. Panerai's aside (lol), there are any number of white elephants in the esoteric watch (8000USD +) level. FWIW my reckoning is if you want to enjoy a lively HOBBY of frequently collecting, buying, and selling on watches, where you might keep the odd one and throw the others back, you'd probably be best working in the 450-900 dollar arena. You can get good quality timepieces from well known and respected companies...and most importantly they should shift. Over 1000 USD and people are looking for other aspects. I know there are a lot of generalisms in what I said and of course certain watches like premium chronos are always going to be up there.
So where is YOUR comfort zone? When do you ummmm and aahhhhh?
And what did I spend my 695 USD on? At a mere 26 years old, the most modern watch in my collection. A Lemania 5100 equipped (which is principally why I bought it) 6ATM Chronomaster (though I wouldn't go anywhere near water with it) made for the Italian air force team.
Not everyone's cup of tea but I sold a broken one on I couldn't justify fixing and always kept an eye out since...

Vitezi · Oct 16, 2018

chipsotoole
I'm a self respecting bottom feeder looking for diamonds in the rough, something precious under all that wrist cheese and those scratches...

Me too. 👍 I find that much of the fun in this silly hobby is the hunt for curated treasure within tight budget constraints. I admit to some satisfaction knowing that most of my vintage watches cost more to service than to be acquired, but I'm also chasing those "other watch brands" that are not as coveted by collectors. That being said, I'll happily bid over $1000 on certain chronographs at auction.

Dan S · Oct 16, 2018

One issue with low-priced watches is that service costs comprise a substantial part of the value. Earlier in my progression as a collector, I focused on lower priced pieces, but I like to have them serviced, and that creates a major problem if you decide to sell or trade them later, since you end up eating the service costs. Or another way to look at is that your annual service/repair costs represent a large fraction of the total value of your collection if you own a lot of low-priced pieces. That's one reason I have gradually convinced myself to add higher-value pieces to my collection. It's easier to justify servicing them and making them correct.

chipsotoole · Oct 16, 2018

Dan S
One issue with low-priced watches is that service costs comprise a substantial part of the value. Earlier in my progression as a collector, I focused on lower priced pieces, but I like to have them serviced, and that creates a major problem if you decide to sell or trade them later, since you end up eating the service costs. Or another way to look at is that your annual service/repair costs represent a large fraction of the total value of your collection if you own a lot of low-priced pieces. That's one reason I have gradually convinced myself to add higher-value pieces to my collection. It's easier to justify servicing them and making them correct.

That's a good point.....

paulw · Oct 16, 2018

How often do you go 1000 USD + to buy vintage? Never yet been willing to pay more than £280 for a watch, and that bought me a pretty mint Seamaster - but obviously not a particularly collectable one, prior to this I spent less than that on a very good Geneve, but again not particularly collectable. Both are from the 70's & gold plated which seems to diminish their collectability (plus Seamaster with a caliber 1010 which I know some don't like this sequence of calibers) but they look superb on the wrist, keep great time & I enjoy wearing them and I expect they will increase in value over time, but I'm not overly concerned. I'm quite like looking at the occasional rescue project, as I'm happy to get dials restored and cases polished, but even total dogs seem to go for way over the odds IMO, but I am a cheapskate and if I'm paying over £500 then there seems to be loads of 'nice' that is to say ones that I'd want to wear (for me that's the only criterion) watches in dealers. Then again I am certainly paying more than that £280 to have my old Seamaster Chronometer serviced, dial restored, case tidied up & new crystal fitted...so I guess I should set that restoration cost, plus the value of the watch to me as my max spend - still nowhere near $1k though.

Paul

chipsotoole · Oct 16, 2018

Yeah it's a hobby and a passion that kinda creeps up you...You start out with a gift or an inheritance, or a flea market find and suddenly as you read more and learn more, attitudes and financial commitment can grow exponentially. Vitezi is chasing those "other watch brands": interesting he doesn't say which, but that's part of the hunt. We'd all like to get in in at the shallow end of watches that are suddenly "flavour of the month". Universal Geneve Polerouters are lovely watches, but 10 years back they wouldn't have made much of a blip on the radar!
If you get committed to this hobby it's very hard to be a consistent hard core cheapskate...
You seem to be currently collecting to wear and don't mind a jot for polishing, restoring and redialling..Words that give some purists here the heebie jeebies..I'm buying for the stuff that takes my fancy, for a sequence of classic/renowned watch movements (the Lemania 5100 as mentioned above- because inside an Omega case and under an Omega dial it costs upwards of 1500 USD. ...or cos I've simply taken a liking to how a particular watch looks.
In the world of watches beauty more than anything is in the eye of the beholder, but if i find a bargain watch ugly or in some way basically visually unappealing to me, there's no way I'd invest in it , even if it was simply to flip....I still need to enjoy the moment of brief ownership and enjoy each piece as it lands...that's what keeps it a hobby and not a business sideline...
....and yes I take my hits too.....but never anything that puts me in a cold sweat..

S.H. · Oct 16, 2018

Dan S
One issue with low-priced watches is that service costs comprise a substantial part of the value. Earlier in my progression as a collector, I focused on lower priced pieces, but I like to have them serviced, and that creates a major problem if you decide to sell or trade them later, since you end up eating the service costs. Or another way to look at is that your annual service/repair costs represent a large fraction of the total value of your collection if you own a lot of low-priced pieces. That's one reason I have gradually convinced myself to add higher-value pieces to my collection. It's easier to justify servicing them and making them correct.

One of the perks of being able to repair vintage watches it than I can bottom feed all year long! And also add exotic/risky pieces to my watch drawer. The "cost" of servicing is mostly my own time, but this cost is not always insignificant...
Of course, the downside is that I don't make that much money so accumulating 1k$+ watches is not really a possibility.

Also, I know what devils can be lying in wait in a vintage watch, so spending a lot of money in a vintage would be difficult for me. There is always a stain, a scratch, an imperfection of the design, ... and if there isn't I do not dare wearing it. 🙄

snunez · Oct 17, 2018

Does anyone think that there is a higher risk of fakes in the lower end of the price range? I'm normally buying & selling in Asia and my casual observation is that this lower end is generally occupied by fakes of higher end specimens.

GuiltyBoomerang · Oct 17, 2018

@snunez - it really repends on your take of fake i.e A Rolex copy or a lower brand homage to a higher one.

As for me, I'd say that since my collection focus has swung towards military (particularly the Dirty Dozen,) pretty much each piece is $1000+ if not multiples of that figure. It does come as a shock, though that is tempered with building up the funds to acquire one...

S.H. · Oct 18, 2018

snunez
Does anyone think that there is a higher risk of fakes in the lower end of the price range? I'm normally buying & selling in Asia and my casual observation is that this lower end is generally occupied by fakes of higher end specimens.

Lots of fakes (dials in particulars) and frankens for USSR watches.

gostang9 · Oct 18, 2018

chipsotoole
This got me thinking a bit about watch collectors , their habits, and their personal price points. Their comfort zones.

chipsotoole
Others set annual limits of their budgets or the number of watches in their collection and exercise considerable restraint.

chipsotoole
...but everyone has a comfort zone, a price point threshold they are loathe to cross.

chipsotoole
...So where is YOUR comfort zone? When do you ummmm and aahhhhh?

I have a personal 'budgeted' amount to spend on toys (including watches). I have a preference for buying multiple lower priced watches rather than a single higher priced watch.

My comfort zone is in the $1k to $5k range. My preference for >36mm watches precludes me from enjoying many of the lovely sub-$1k pieces. I know some on OF think this preference is nonsense, but the market seems to agree with me as prices of anything >36mm are often multiples of similar examples in the <36mm range.

Dan S
One issue with low-priced watches is that service costs comprise a substantial part of the value.

This is very true.

Might sounds a bit crazy but getting a $500 service on a modern $10000 watch feels better somehow than getting a $500 service on a $500 watch.

Dan S
Earlier in my progression as a collector, I focused on lower priced pieces, but I like to have them serviced, and that creates a major problem if you decide to sell or trade them later, since you end up eating the service costs. Or another way to look at is that your annual service/repair costs represent a large fraction of the total value of your collection if you own a lot of low-priced pieces. That's one reason I have gradually convinced myself to add higher-value pieces to my collection. It's easier to justify servicing them and making them correct.

I started with higher priced modern watches and only this year started going after the sub-$1k range vintage watches.

Like you, I prefer getting them properly serviced before wearing and the all-in cost of a watch can easily double (or more) from the selling price.

It was this realization that led me to starting this thread on OF...
https://omegaforums.net/threads/selling-of-watches-that-are-unserviced.79470/

Deafboy · Oct 18, 2018

After buying a few vintage watches, I also realized that service added significantly to the cost of ownership. Then I discovered a new interesting hobby: servicing watches. 😁 Now I can confidently buy inexpensive -but high quality- watches that need TLC and rejuvenate them.

Check out the Hamilton Donald, or the military issued Bulova. Each under $150.

S.H. · Oct 18, 2018

gostang9
Might sounds a bit crazy but getting a $500 service on a modern $10000 watch feels better somehow than getting a $500 service on a $500 watch.

But in either case you get 500$ worth of specialized work done for you...

I understand it of course and I catch myself thinking the same thing sometimes but it makes me sad that we don't really value work anymore, compared to the possession of valuable (whatever it really means) objects. Money really permeated everything.

gostang9 · Oct 18, 2018

S.H.
But in either case you get 500$ worth of specialized work done for you...

I understand it of course and I catch myself thinking the same thing sometimes but it makes me sad that we don't really value work anymore, compared to the possession of valuable (whatever it really means) objects. Money really permeated everything.

I never said anything about not valuing the work. I find great value in taking my watches to the watchmaker to get serviced. I appreciate and value his work tremendously and it’s why I bring my new watches in for servicing.

jimmyd13 · Oct 18, 2018

It's no secret that I buy a lot of watches and also move quite a few of them on. At the moment I have at least half a dozen watches up for sale in that price range. So I thought I'd throw in some numbers to explain why so many watches seem to come in at that price point.

Let's take this one:

On my wrist the day I bought it. It's a 1949 2581-1. Bought at auction, this watch brought a lot of interest in the room and from the internet. The case is simply gorgeous and the dial has aged wonderfully. It has a replacement crown but otherwise it's all original. So, to buy it, I had to pay £500 at the hammer (£600 including commission). It went for service, had a new rotor bearing and setting lever (that was very hard to get hold of). The service was around £120. So, the watch owes me £720. It's up for sale at £1200. Now, from that potential £480 profit, there's tax, rent, general overheads to cover ... basically, what I'm saying is that there's no way to continue to do this (and pay for my watch habit) by selling this for three figures.

What I think I'm getting at is that we can all buy watches for a few hundreds. But it all depends what you want to buy and what you're willing to let yourself in for. If you have the ability or the contacts to repair and service a vintage watch then you can afford to buy at auction and fix it up. On the other hand, if you want a watch that's already had all it's issues seen to and comes with a guarantee; that can go straight on your wrist and give you years of that vintage enjoyment ... well, yes ... they're into four figures now.

Now, you ask how often I have spent over £1000 on a watch? Too many times to count. But they tend to be for me. They go in my box. They're my babies.

leepxy · Oct 18, 2018

GuiltyBoomerang
@snunez - it really repends on your take of fake i.e A Rolex copy or a lower brand homage to a higher one.

As for me, I'd say that since my collection focus has swung towards military (particularly the Dirty Dozen,) pretty much each piece is $1000+ if not multiples of that figure. It does come as a shock, though that is tempered with building up the funds to acquire one...

👍 The dirty dozen is what got me into vintage pieces! I had been debating getting myself a nice watch and went through the existential crisis of modern vs vintage haha

Biezmez · Oct 19, 2018

Vitezi
Me too. 👍 I find that much of the fun in this silly hobby is the hunt for curated treasure within tight budget constraints. I admit to some satisfaction knowing that most of my vintage watches cost more to service than to be acquired, but I'm also chasing those "other watch brands" that are not as coveted by collectors. That being said, I'll happily bid over $1000 on certain chronographs at auction.

Totally agree, for me the first part of the hobby is in the hunt for the diamond in the rough. The second part is the repair of the watch. I have a really good watch repairer, but she also has issues with regards to getting hold of vintage parts etc. So I’ve burnt myself a couple of times on what seemed like cheap watches with replacement hands or wrong crowns thinking I’ll be able to get them replaced no problem, only to find out they are not as easy to get hold of. I therefore try and limit myself to watches that are in the rough, but retain original parts and for reasonable money (less than 500GBP). Funnily enough there have been alot fewer purchases recently, but I’m much happier with what I have purchased.

chipsotoole · Oct 20, 2018

[ It went for service, had a new rotor bearing and setting lever (that was very hard to get hold of). The service was around £120. So, the watch owes me £720. It's up for sale at £1200. Now, from that potential £480 profit, there's tax, rent, general overheads to cover ... basically, what I'm saying is that there's no way to continue to do this (and pay for my watch habit) by selling this for three figures.

What I think I'm getting at is that we can all buy watches for a few hundreds. But it all depends what you want to buy and what you're willing to let yourself in for. If you have the ability or the contacts to repair and service a vintage watch then you can afford to buy at auction and fix it up. On the other hand, if you want a watch that's already had all it's issues seen to and comes with a guarantee; that can go straight on your wrist and give you years of that vintage enjoyment ... well, yes ... they're into four figures now.

Now, you ask how often I have spent over £1000 on a watch? Too many times to count. But they tend to be for me. They go in my box. They're my babies.

[/QUOTE]

You missed the price of the setting lever!! 120 UKP fora service is a great deal, and it is indeed a lovely watch with what I'm assuming is an 18k case....But this is a perfect example of the point I'm trying to make. Is it worth 900 pounds? Yes probably if it's gold ? Would someone go to 1200 UKP (1300+ USD )for a simple uncomplicated watch of this nature with no particular historical or military provenance from a non commercial seller? That's where I'm not so sure...I'm not meaning to dis your sale in any way and I sincerely hope you get what you want for it, but to hobby collectors like me, this is a significant step over my personal comfort zone. The watch owes you 720 or so, I can certainly see a small profit there.. but a 50% markup on your outlay might be a bit ambitious.
Your watch box is very cool btw.

gostang9 · Oct 20, 2018

chipsotoole
Would someone go to 1200 UKP (1300+ USD )for a simple uncomplicated watch of this nature with no particular historical or military provenance from a non commercial seller? That's where I'm not so sure...

Sure, some of us would. We don’t all have the time, knowledge or resources to get nice watches for good prices.

I bought a 2396 for a lot more than most (maybe anyone on here) would pay for one, and then I sent it for service for yet more money. (Not sure the total yet, hope to pick it up next week). If I had any intention of flipping it the next few years, it would seem a ridiculous purchase. If I keep and enjoy it for 20+ years, then it will seem fine.

There are many dinners and events in a year that can easily cost >$500 for something that is over and gone in less than a day. Spending the same amount as a premium on a beautiful watch that can be enjoyed over and over for many decades? Seems like an okay way to spend money to me...

gemini4 · Oct 20, 2018

This beauty came in this week for <$1,000. Circa 1959, I added the period correct BOR bracelet.

Added bonus. It’s a very close match with Ryan Gosling’s Lalaland watch.

How often do you go 1000 USD + to buy vintage?

chipsotoole

Vitezi

Dan S

chipsotoole

paulw

chipsotoole

S.H.

snunez

GuiltyBoomerang

S.H.

gostang9

Deafboy

S.H.

gostang9

jimmyd13

leepxy

Biezmez

chipsotoole

gostang9

gemini4

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