Hi guys,
a few weeks/months ago, we had an interesting discussion about how the black on a black dial usually goes on top of the gold, so the gold font is showing through, rather than the gold font going on top of the black? but i can't find it. could someone point it out to me!
ta
daniel

 

I wrote it, but can't remember where it was either.

If someone doesn't find it in the next couple days remind me and I will rewrite it here.

 

I expect that there are some dial makers and manufacturers where this reverse process may well be used, but it was not the process for post-war Omega vintage dials. Metal dies were used which had reversed engraved fonts.. They were then brushed with whatever font colour and stamped. This is why many fonts on both black dials and other models appear raised in Omega vintage watches. In some instances the engraved fonts weren't so deep and thus we see a variance in some dial batches and models.

Cheers

Desmond

 

I think it is here:
http://omegaforums.net/threads/is-this-guilloche-constellationl-original.2511/page-2#post-28599

 

Sorry, but I beg to differ in regards to many black Omega dials from the 1950s, particularly dress styles like the Constellation.



Here are a couple shots of an original black pie-pan from a cal 505, the gold print is dead flat it very definitely NOT over printed on top of the black.

The gentleman who does dials for me explained the process as a double PLATING, the gold being underneath the black over print on these dials. These are not painted and not printed using the traditional offset method on most other dials. This is why we often see gold peaking through an aging black dial, the top layer of plating is deteriorating with the underlying gold is showing through. While not typical for most colors, this is how he says black ones were done, particularly if they have gold printing. Speedmasters and early Seamaster divers are a different story, they use the traditional black painted base with offset printed lettering, etc.

 

Just caught up with your post, and thanks for the shots. This is an interesting discussion. As far as I'm aware, there were a number of base metals used in Omega dials: quite commonly thin brass and a kind of bronze in earlier dials, which is why we see these colours of metal on the rear side of the dial at the point where the rivets are brushed on dials where the rivetting method has been used. (Interestingly, some dial contractors particularly for two "tone" dials had a system of machine crimping that did not require brushing and are identifiable by a circular machine mark around the rivet, but one can still see the base metal.). Also some Omega dials were made of pressed steel and we recognise those by the rust marks we see on degraded dials.

In later dials during the early to later sixties we also see steel dials and brass dials with beryllium/bronze copper coatings and also aluminium-based amalgams (which is why some degraded black dials appear to have copper-like flecks and others have degraded to a greyish, almost powdery base metal).

I don't doubt as I said before that there are numerous methods of dial production, but even with the pictures you provide I cannot reconcile that the black is overprinted on to gold. It seems to me that the dial is a brass dial and the black paint has degraded to show various hues of the brass. I recall a discussion quite some time ago on dials of the cal 501/504/505 period on Connies, where indeed there is a flatter printing on some, but not by any means all, black dials. At the time the suspicion was that particular dial maker was responsible for these variances, where the engraving on the dial die was less deep than in most Constellation dies of the time and which gave a much flatter appearance. I'm not aware that Omega dial contractors of the fifties used an off-set system, rather the dial dies were engraved, the silvered or gold ink was brushed on to the die in minute quantities and pressed on to the dial ground. In fact, the Atelier shops that produce dials for higher-end watches still use this method, which was pretty well universal in the fifties.

With the dial pictures you provided, I note that some of the dial paint in the lettering is also degraded. If a base coating of gold was applied to a brass dial I cannot see this happening, whereas I can see it happening if the gold lettering was printed on a black ground. Also, while the method you describe may well apply to dials with simple configurations, we are talking about a hugely complicated printing exercise here with a complete chapter ring, uppercase fonts and lowercase constellation along with a cross hair and Swiss Made. If we apply your suggestion to the production of this dial, we must assume that all features were etched so deeply on the die so as to avoid any inking buildup at the points of engraving, and we must assume that the inking process was so perfect that it left no raised areas at all and not even minute bleeding at the point where where the lettering, cross hair and chapter ring intersect with the black. I've had a look under magnification of a couple of black dials I have from the period and I cannot see any raising of the edges where the black ink would naturally settle if the process was black on gold/silver as opposed to overprinting of silver/gold on to black.

While I think much can be achieved with modern dial manufacturing methods, I am skeptical that such a process existed for complicated dial printing in the fifties, particularly when traditonal methods are still used on quality watches today.

Regards

Desmond.

 

Desmond, take a look at the photos in this post (#8 in the thread):

http://omegaforums.net/threads/thoughts-on-this-ebay-watch.3041/#post-36424

Unless somebody dripped gold paint on the dial, the black paint is wearing off to expose the underneath color - which is the same as the font.

 

Desmond, we may simply have to agree to disagree on this one.

Having examined the dial with a 10x loupe and also having had it examined by someone who has restored/refinished 10s of thousands of dials over the past 20 or so years, I will stick with my contention that at least this example is not overprinted on top of the black surface.

Perhaps this photo more clearly shows the aging to the metallic finish of the lettering and not the deterioration of a printed finish.

 

Those pic just make me love those watches even more!

 

i was always under the impression, that most black dials from that period were printed black over gold blancs. have not seen raised gold letters; they look perfectly flat. but that was only a passed on saying; have no scientific proof. kind regards. achim