Heuer 3647 / Gay Freres Advice

Dunk15 · Nov 1, 2020

Hi all, long time reader of the forum who just finally got around to making an account.

I'm hoping to get some input from the community on a prospective Heuer 3647N purchase. I've been searching for one of these for many months, and by chance a local estate dealer just got one in stock. I went to see the watch in person yesterday and it looks great in every respect. Very sharp lugs and the dial and handset all looked good to me. Unfortunately the store does not permit photos, but I've attached the only photo from the listing.

On the watch itself, my main question is regarding the crown. The crown on the watch is Heuer-signed. I understand that some of the earlier 3647s had unsigned crowns and that perhaps some of the later ones were signed (the watch in question does have the T Swiss dial), but any guidance on determining if the crown is correct would be appreciated as I haven't been able to find a definitive answer on this. I was unable to see the serial number as the watch had the Gay Freres bracelet attached. Of course, please let me know if anything else on the watch looks off based off this one photo.

My second question is regarding the Gay Freres bracelet. I was told that it was the original bracelet and overall the condition seemed quite good to me (albeit there was some light scratching/wear due to the age). The clasp had the Heuer logo and the inner part was Gay Freres signed. I've done some reading around the forums and understand that the old Gay Freres bracelets are quite sought after, but I was unable to find much specific detail on the Carrera bracelets. Essentially, what I'm trying to get is a better sense of the rough value of the bracelet as I'm trying to determine how fair the price is that the store is asking for the watch + bracelet package (I have some familiarity of the value of the watch head, but not so much for the bracelet).

Thanks in advance for any help you're able to provide.

Wlcutter · Nov 2, 2020

I'm not sure what 3647s are going for at the moment--I suspect it's in the $6-8k range for a black one like this with some lume missing in the M hand but in otherwise great-looking shape, and seeming to be unpolished--but that bracelet's worth quite a bit, as it's a double beads-of-rice GF Heuer bracelet. I don't think I've seen one go for under $4k in several years.

Passover · Nov 2, 2020

Is the serial number available?

Maybe this could you get a hint towards the crown question...

How about the date engraved inside the GF clasp?

Are the endlinks signed? Sould be HEL as far as I know...

Redwes25 · Nov 2, 2020

Need to know the serial number to know if crown is correct as you can try and date watch that way as you are correct earlier watches had unsigned crown. I would note in one picture it doesn’t look flush against the case.

Bracelet with correct original HEL end links are at least 4K.

Redwes25 · Nov 2, 2020

Wlcutter
I'm not sure what 3647s are going for at the moment--I suspect it's in the $6-8k range for a black one like this with some lume missing in the M hand but in otherwise great-looking shape, and seeming to be unpolished--but that bracelet's worth quite a bit, as it's a double beads-of-rice GF Heuer bracelet. I don't think I've seen one go for under $4k in several years.

A 3647s is the silver dialed one. I would say around 4K for S in this condition. An n like this one sells for a premium and would say 5k to 5.5k between private sellers but their would be a premium if from a dealer.

Wlcutter · Nov 2, 2020

Redwes25
A 3647s is the silver dialed one. I would say around 4K for S in this condition. An n like this one sells for a premium and would say 5k to 5.5k between private sellers but their would be a premium if from a dealer.

Funny: I know it's an N, I simply meant plural 3647.

Redwes25 · Nov 2, 2020

Wlcutter
Funny: I know it's an N, I simply meant plural 3647.

Ok sorry.

abrod520 · Nov 2, 2020

Could be the weird lighting but those end links don't look like proper HELs to me. I'm also not sure, but I don't know that 3647 models came on bracelets originally as they were intended to be a budget option, but this double-grain would certainly be period correct at the very least.

I'd say @Redwes25 is about right on the value - maybe $5k for the watch in that condition, plus $4k for the bracelet (assuming the end links are at least genuine, if not necessarily correct). Combined I would say $8500 or so.

Less than that, I'd say it's a buy. I'd ask for serial and movement photos anyway but especially if he's asking crazy money

Dunk15 · Nov 2, 2020

Passover
Is the serial number available?

Maybe this could you get a hint towards the crown question...

How about the date engraved inside the GF clasp?

Are the endlinks signed? Sould be HEL as far as I know...

Unfortunately, I couldn't see the serial number as the bottom of the case was covered by the bracelet. I also realized only after I left the shop and did some more reading online that there is a date stamp on the GF clasp - hadn't noticed this in store. I believe the endlinks were HELs. I'm going to write to the dealer to see if they're able to confirm the serial number, GF date stamp, and endlink stamps.

Dunk15 · Nov 2, 2020

Redwes25
Need to know the serial number to know if crown is correct as you can try and date watch that way as you are correct earlier watches had unsigned crown. I would note in one picture it doesn’t look flush against the case.

Bracelet with correct original HEL end links are at least 4K.

Thanks for the input. I'm going to write to the dealer to try and confirm the serial number (couldn't see the bottom of the case as the bracelet was blocking this) and will report back.

Dunk15 · Nov 2, 2020

abrod520
Could be the weird lighting but those end links don't look like proper HELs to me. I'm also not sure, but I don't know that 3647 models came on bracelets originally as they were intended to be a budget option, but this double-grain would certainly be period correct at the very least.

I'd say @Redwes25 is about right on the value - maybe $5k for the watch in that condition, plus $4k for the bracelet (assuming the end links are at least genuine, if not necessarily correct). Combined I would say $8500 or so.

Less than that, I'd say it's a buy. I'd ask for serial and movement photos anyway but especially if he's asking crazy money

Thank you. I did notice in the shop that the endlinks didn't look completely flush with the case. I'm going to write to the dealer to try and confirm the endlinks, serial number, and GF date stamp and will report back.

Based off this feedback, the price is on the high side - CAD$13,800 (so about US$10,500), although I do attribute some value to buying the watch in person (and not incurring import duties), and the dealer would also service the watch upon purchase (I'm guessing this would cost around $500-$1,000 if done separately).

Redwes25 · Nov 2, 2020

Dunk15
Thank you. I did notice in the shop that the endlinks didn't look completely flush with the case. I'm going to write to the dealer to try and confirm the endlinks, serial number, and GF date stamp and will report back.

Based off this feedback, the price is on the high side - CAD$13,800 (so about US$10,500), although I do attribute some value to buying the watch in person (and not incurring import duties), and the dealer would also service the watch upon purchase (I'm guessing this would cost around $500-$1,000 if done separately).

I would value the service around $500 so overall seems high to me but it is dealer pricing but not completely outrageous like some dealers.

ETA - Would also ask for a movement pic when you go back to them.

Dunk15 · Nov 2, 2020

Redwes25
I would value the service around $500 so overall seems high to me but it is dealer pricing but not completely outrageous like some dealers.

ETA - Would also ask for a movement pic when you go back to them.

Agreed, definitely not cheap, but all in all not a bad price compared to buying a watch online (sight unseen) and paying duties costs.

Yep, I'm planning to ask for a movement pic as well as the other items. Thanks for your help on this.

abrod520 · Nov 3, 2020

Dunk15
Thank you. I did notice in the shop that the endlinks didn't look completely flush with the case. I'm going to write to the dealer to try and confirm the endlinks, serial number, and GF date stamp and will report back.

Based off this feedback, the price is on the high side - CAD$13,800 (so about US$10,500), although I do attribute some value to buying the watch in person (and not incurring import duties), and the dealer would also service the watch upon purchase (I'm guessing this would cost around $500-$1,000 if done separately).

Find out how respected this dealer's services are - this could be worth nothing (or even remove value, if it's a hack job) but I think you're within offer range of it being worth it.

Dunk15 · Nov 7, 2020

The dealer has confirmed that the bracelet is dated 1967 and the endlinks are HELs. Strangely, they've said there's no serial number. My guess here is that they didn't realize the serial might be covered up by the bracelet - I'd be a bit surprised if the number was polished off given the condition of the rest of the case.

One more photo of the watch - perhaps a better angle of the endlinks:

Passover · Nov 8, 2020

Dunk15
Strangely, they've said there's no serial number.

I have seen some Heuers with cases with very moderate polishing only with the SN not readable any more.

Some had correctly dated GF on and the seller claimed the SN had been erased by the year long rubbing of the end links.

I don't know if this could be true - maybe some of the more experienced members could comment on that...

abrod520 · Nov 8, 2020

Passover
the seller claimed the SN had been erased by the year long rubbing of the end links

On some models, it's quite common - the 1970s cushion-case Carreras had their model and serials on the very top lip of the case edge where the end links met, and many were rubbed out. Not as common with the 1960s models, but still not a red flag - for a 50 year old watch, some polishing is likely. I don't think I'd want to pay a premium for it though.

Dunk15 · Nov 9, 2020

Passover
I have seen some Heuers with cases with very moderate polishing only with the SN not readable any more.

Some had correctly dated GF on and the seller claimed the SN had been erased by the year long rubbing of the end links.

I don't know if this could be true - maybe some of the more experienced members could comment on that...

abrod520
On some models, it's quite common - the 1970s cushion-case Carreras had their model and serials on the very top lip of the case edge where the end links met, and many were rubbed out. Not as common with the 1960s models, but still not a red flag - for a 50 year old watch, some polishing is likely. I don't think I'd want to pay a premium for it though.

Thanks guys. Any thoughts on if these look like correct HEL endlinks in the second pic?

Passover · Nov 10, 2020

Dunk15
Any thoughts on if these look like correct HEL endlinks in the second pic?

Usually a very important point concerning the originality of end links is the engraving but this isn't shown in the second pic...

Should look like that:

As they could have been bent or damaged in a way I think it is very hard to tell from your picture if they are original or not 🙁

Redwes25 · Nov 10, 2020

Dunk15
Thanks guys. Any thoughts on if these look like correct HEL endlinks in the second pic?

You can’t tell without seeing inside of bracelet like picture Passover posted. Though it seems a bit loose to me but I have never owned HEL end links for a Carrera so that is pure speculation.

Heuer 3647 / Gay Freres Advice

Dunk15

Wlcutter

Passover

Redwes25

Redwes25

Wlcutter

Redwes25

abrod520

Dunk15

Dunk15

Dunk15

Redwes25

Dunk15

abrod520

Dunk15

Passover

abrod520

Dunk15

Passover

Redwes25

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